Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Debate between Baroness Brinton and Baroness Barker

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I added my name to Amendments 37, 38 and 39 and I shall not repeat the very good points made by my noble friends Lord Marks and Lady Grender. I shall start from the point at which my noble friend Lady Grender ended: namely, the activities among our teenagers and very young adults which may not always be fully sexually explicit, and certainly may not be intended to be pornographic. A large number of students both in schools and colleges are being asked by their boyfriends or sometimes—though it is unlikely—girlfriends to have photographs taken of them which I am afraid are being used against them. The noble Baronesses, Lady Berridge and Lady Morris, made valid points about the distinction between different types of photograph. It may be that that will be addressed in the discussion that I hope the Minister will have with those who have put forward both sets of amendments.

The principle in our amendments is clear: that the crime is the publication of those photographs or other electronic media, because it is that over which the person in the photograph feels they completely lack control. It is used as a form of abuse. Increasingly what is used as a key element in cases of stalking—indeed this morning there is a case in the paper for which a court date has just been set in December in Scotland—is the threat to publish not only publicly but also among family and friends. The key point of our amendment is that when it becomes a tool of abuse, that in itself should become a crime.

Because this is about making a law, there is, understandably, little focus on the victim. I will highlight the work that the NSPCC and ChildLine have been doing with young people. They have a very good app called Zipit that is intended to teach secondary school pupils how to respond if their boyfriend or girlfriend asks them for a photograph that is inappropriate, using silly photographs and silly text underneath that might say something like, “You’re having a laugh”. That is beginning to work. The work that PSHE staff are doing in schools to make young people understand the dangers of this are vital if we are not to end up with a generation of young people thinking that it is acceptable to play at this. When they get into stronger relationships where they may have a partner over some period of time it will be second nature; then, if they want to get their own back, we will end up in a position where these sexually explicit photographs start to be exported.

I am concerned that one thing that we have not looked at is the circulation of the image after initial publication. There has been some discussion online about trolling and about abuse of the victims by others. I hope that the Minister will be prepared to look at this. It may be difficult to pin down who has circulated the image but we have seen, in recent cases of trolling, that people who have recirculated offensive and defamatory literature can be taken to court for continued publication. That should also be true in this case.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I will address the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, that the way in which this amendment is worded is of the utmost importance. Our amendment tries to focus not on the definition of what is pornographic but on the act of revenge. That is why, in our amendment, we have concentrated on the initial posting of an image rather than the reproduction or the recommunication of it, because the act of revenge happens in the initial posting.

To respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, we have no problem with making this a sexual offence. Quite clearly it is. We do have a number of problems with the way in which her amendment is drafted. For example, it requires that the image be of the two people involved, but you can make a very good attempt at ruining somebody’s life by producing pictures of them with somebody else. I did not think that we would get to the headless man today, but we have—the point there was precisely that it was not the two people in the relationship.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, is right to make us focus on consent. There are a lot of people out there who one would best call amateur pornographers and who actually want to share the lives on the web. I do not know why, and do not ever want to see it or have anything to do with it, but they do. It should therefore be a defence that they had reason to believe that there was consent on the part of the other person. However, if we are going to make this sufficiently robust and—what we really want it to be above all else—a deterrent that makes it absolutely clear to people who are thinking of committing such an act that they may go to prison, she is right that we need to focus on that. Our amendments are not perfect but they take us quite a long way to where we want to go.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Brinton and Baroness Barker

Wednesday 7th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I have just one issue to raise, on Amendment 32 and the Government’s amendments in light of the Delegated Powers Committee report. I speak on behalf of a number of people who are grateful that the Government have been able to respond very quickly to this. It is much more sensible for this to be an affirmative instrument rather than a negative one.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, in view of the press coverage today, perhaps I could ask the Minister to confirm a point. When the Better Care Fund was announced, the intention was that projects would start in April 2015. Is that still the Government’s intention or has the timescale been put back? What seems to me constructive is the move to have more engagement from the NHS in setting up the projects under the Better Care Fund. One key aspect of the Better Care Fund on which it rests is ensuring that there are enough strong and appropriate providers of community services to ensure that older people get the care in the community that they need.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wall, put a question during our earlier exchanges that went straight to this matter. You cannot simply close spaces in the NHS and expect that somehow people will be provided—magically, at a stroke—with services in the community. I quite see why people have leapt on this as a story, but I struggle to see the substantive issue. I go back to a point that was made earlier: how many times have we stood in your Lordships’ House and talked about integration of health and social care as being a desirable end that will deliver better services? It seems to me that the NHS may be questioning some matters to do with budgets. That is not a case for undermining the Government’s whole policy.