Changing and Toilet Facilities in Public Buildings

Baroness Brinton Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for securing this debate. I think that we all understood that it was going to be wider than perhaps its title proposed. Before we come on to that, I want to make a personal and specific comment about the number of disabled toilets and changing rooms available in public places and whether they are fit for purpose. The debate of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is about finessing issues, but disabled people often find that there are not disabled facilities available for them and they are in a slightly more difficult position.

I cannot count the number of times I have gone into a disabled toilet in a public building and discovered that it is also a dumping ground, usually, but not only, for cleaning materials and equipment. One restaurant just the other side of Parliament Square was using its disabled toilet as a spare chair store, so you could not even get in through the door, let alone approach the toilet itself. This is not a matter that requires change or regulation. It is always about staff training and the culture of an organisation.

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, was carefully trying to assess where the boundaries are in this difficult debate about women-only spaces. He argued that some people need them because they believe that they feel less safe and that men or others, whether trans or not, risk making these spaces unsafe. That could be a difficult assertion. In my years working with victims of abuse and domestic violence, one common feature is that people could never have imagined their perpetrator as being dangerous to them until it was too late. Abusers look like us—all of us.

In January, a woman who posed as a teenage boy was jailed for grooming girls as young as 13, starting online and then meeting them. The judge described her behaviour as predatory and her targets as vulnerable girls who often started with low self-esteem—that is why they were the targets. Five years ago, the Daily Telegraph wrote an excellent article on female paedophiles, following the jailing of Marie Black and Carol Stadler, who were part of a gang in Norwich. The article quoted forensic psychologist, Nina Burrowes, who said of female abusers:

“I do … believe [women sexually abusing children] happens less often than men, but it happens a lot more than you realise. I suspect it’s much more underreported”.


She suggests that society has not been willing to learn more about female paedophilia. She said:

“We find it abhorrent because it challenges our ideas of women and motherhood … We like to live with the idea that men are dangerous and women are safe, so when you see children [talking] to a male stranger in the park it’s dangerous but if they are talking to a woman it isn’t.”


Can the Minister give the House data on the actual incidents recorded in changing rooms and toilets, broken down by gender and type of crime, such as theft and assault? What practical arrangements can be made to police these spaces? Many people find that they are turning up in a space that is deemed by some to be inappropriate. It would be very difficult if it was expected to be policed solely by other users of that space.

I want toilets, changing rooms and all public spaces to be safe for all users. The data does not show us that transwomen are more dangerous than anybody else. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence that LGBT people, especially transpeople, are more likely to be attacked, more likely to suffer abuse and hate crime and more likely to be at risk of suicide because of the pressure.

I just hope that we can pause for a moment and consider how a transwoman, portrayed as a possible danger to families by some, might feel. Last week I saw on the BBC website an amazing young poet, Gray Crosbie, tell of their experience. The concerns of non-binary, intersex and transpeople are rarely heard. I am quoting selectively from their poem:

“Our society has a limited capacity for people who don’t fit the norm …


And we are normally offered female or male

Mark the box with a tick, make yourself fit ...

But I am more that other.

Into this society entirely divisible by two into woman and man

But I relate most to the ampersand (and I need a haircut!) …

But still too often there’s some of us are standing clutching our bladders trying to decipher which bathroom symbol we better resemble, based on what we are wearing or on how brave we are feeling.


There’s a day to day struggle that people quietly battle like find a way to wear your own skin whilst navigating a world in which we don’t always fit in … life can be tough out there


So do you have to make a fuss”.


I absolutely accept the spirit in which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has brought this debate but I am concerned that perhaps this matter is overstated.