Baroness Brinton
Main Page: Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Baroness Brinton Excerpts
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, the terms under which ACAS is strengthened are very important, but first I want to reiterate a point I made at Second Reading and to which the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, has already referred: it is important to ensure that resources are available right from the start, not just post fees starting to trickle in. When I was a senior county councillor some years ago, I recall that we always believed in the principle of good housekeeping. If the funding of this is based on reducing the costs involved in employment tribunals over the longer run, there is clearly a cash flow problem in business terms before any savings can be made. It is vital that ACAS is staffed and resourced appropriately, so that it is able to pick up the ball and run with it.
I turn to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Morris. I believe that ACAS is in exactly the right position. One of the great strengths of this Bill is that it recognises that going to mediation before the long wait—I have been involved in EATs both as an employer and as an employee in the past—is the better course. It can sometimes take up to two years for a case to be heard, and that is not good for either side. Early mediation is a good way of resolving this. My knowledge of ACAS over the years leads me to believe that it is in a perfect position to do this.
While I have sympathy with the amendment, I am not sure that it needs to be written into the Bill, but I would hope that the Secretary of State would automatically want to review something like this to ensure that it is actually providing the resources that are needed.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I support the amendment. I am still trying to get my head around the vision of the noble Lord, Lord Marland, as a recruiting sergeant, and I look forward to seeing him at the next factory gates recruitment session. More seriously, this is an appropriate amendment given the background against which the further involvement of ACAS is taking place. Let us be clear on the principle of what the Government are doing. We are at one with the principle of involving ACAS in mediation and conciliation. There is no argument against that. But, as a number of my noble friends have said, if the Government want the ends, they have to will the means. That is the real concern behind the amendment.
As my noble friend Lord Monks said, it is being introduced against the backdrop of a number of other changes being made to workers’ rights, such as the extension of unfair dismissal to two years and the introduction of fees. A lot is going on in this area. We are not opposed to the principle, but we are concerned about whether there will be enough resources. Although the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, talked about a review, we are actually talking about the anticipation of an impact assessment. We agree about the need for a review, but that will take place in another amendment. I would be interested if the Minister could tell us what the effect of introducing conciliation right across the board will be. Has the situation already been assessed?
It could be said that to a certain extent this is a probing amendment, but we regard it as a serious one. Our concern is that if you want the involvement of ACAS and if it is going to function in a way that will enable it to carry out a conciliation and mediation role, we all need to be assured that the service has the necessary means to do it.
I look forward to hearing from the Minister as to whether the Government have assessed the impact of this issue, including on other areas such as fees. What do they see as the necessary resource requirements of ACAS in its new situation?
Lord Marland
I can clarify that. The certificate is necessary to demonstrate compliance with the obligation. It would have to be issued within that framework.
Baroness Brinton
It would be very helpful for other Members of the Grand Committee to be able to see the Minister’s letter to the noble Lord, Lord Monks, and any other replies that are circulated.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, before the noble Baroness rises to make her final decision, I intervene to make the point that there is sympathy around the Grand Committee for the case that she has been putting forward. I have only once been involved in legal proceedings. It was an industrial tribunal. I was advised that once the person who was taking us to the industrial tribunal had instituted proceedings, I should not be involved in giving her advice, against the possibility of misunderstanding, but I was very strongly of the view that she was making a mistake. Our barrister was the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, before he ascended to that role, and his pupil, who accompanied him, was the future Prime Minister. They were effective in arguing our case, and the tribunal found that there was no proper cause for compensation to be offered. The irony of the whole thing was that the fees of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, and whatever he provided to the former Prime Minister exactly equalled the money that we had been prepared to give her before she instituted the proceedings against us.
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, we have got on to talking about Clause 11, which I opposed at Second Reading on the basis that it was quite unnecessary. I did not really understand why the Government decided to proceed along these lines because the tripartite system that we have works extremely well. The lay people who serve in it are highly respected and in no way put off by the somewhat legalistic environment. They are quite well able to look after the whole situation as concerns workplace arrangements—they know about workplaces, which is why they are appointed to serve on the tribunal.
I still do not really understand why the Government believe that a judge sitting alone on unfair dismissal cases is likely to be more competent. Do they expect him to find more ways to go against the employee? Have they decided that they want a judge sitting alone because the decisions are more likely to be the kind that the Government would like? We know that they are not very keen on tribunal hearings anyway. I want to know why the Government think that this is a good idea.
In the document that the Government have already issued, they have indicated that the points at issue would be legal points, which is why it would be a good idea to have a judge sitting on his own. However, I remind the Government that they have already introduced LASPO, which means that there is no access to legal aid in employment cases. In fact, the individual who is not represented by someone he can afford to appoint to look after him, if he does not have a union to support him, will be entirely on his own and will have no access to any form of legal aid because LASPO has decided against it, as far as employment cases are concerned. An unfortunate individual such as this would have only himself to rely on before a judge sitting on his own. That is not a good idea. It would be far better to have lay people still operating, and I very much hope that the Government will reconsider their position here because it is not fair. It means that individuals will very often, if they are taking up their case themself, be left without anyone to represent them. That is not a good idea if they are going before a judge sitting on his own who is guided simply by legal principles, not by what happens in a normal workplace.
Baroness Brinton
I have slightly different concerns about Clause 11, but they stem from the same starting point. They are about why the Bill proposes to give the judge much more power to decide on whether a panel should sit with him or her to hear an appeal.
Given that the practice is already there, evidence shows that lay people are brought in to assist a judge, usually on a controversial decision that requires expertise from both the employer and the workforce background. As has been mentioned by other noble Lords, lay members of these appeal panels frequently are respected by both parties. That balance has been an absolute strength of the appeal panel. I am struggling to see why it should become automatic that the judge would sit on his or her own.
I rather pointedly said “his or her own” because I also want to raise the issue of the diversity of an appeal panel when a judge is sitting on his own—it is usually “his” own—and diversity has, ironically, been provided by the lay members. Can the Minister give us some indication of the action the Secretary of State would require to ensure that there was diversity—essential in employment hearings—in appeal proceedings if this process becomes commonplace?
I come back to my initial point: I do not understand why the balance has been tipped from the current situation, in which when a difficult decision has to be made, judges are absolutely clear that they should bring in people, to a proposal in the Bill that presumes that the judges are likely to want to work on their own initially.
Lord Marland
When I was being taught how to speak—a long time ago and I have obviously not improved much—I was always told, “Paint a picture of somewhere and everyone will listen to your every word”. It is very hard not to hang on to every word of the noble Lord, Lord Monks. One moment he is at the Grand National; the next moment he is at the Nuremberg trials.
These matters are part of our history, and the words that I was most struck by were that we have to move on. This part of the legislation is about moving on. I am afraid that it is a simple fact that these cases are decided on a point of law. The rule of law defines these cases, and you therefore have to have a lawyer to decide the case. As an employer or an employee— I have been both—I would want to know that I was being supported by the rule of law, which is a fundamental part of this country. Therefore, the judge is the only person I would want to hear from in either of those situations, because the case is decided only on a point of law, not on any extenuating circumstances that may come in.
Lord Morris of Handsworth
It is accepted that ultimately the decision is on a point of law, but the law is guided by the facts of the case. Therefore, it is important to recognise that facts guide law. On the basis of what has been said so far, it seems to me that we are turning the argument on its head in thinking that it is only law and not fact.
Baroness Brinton
Does the Minister agree that appeals on employment law are set firmly in the context of employment practice? Concepts such as the range of reasonable response depend on a good understanding of how a reasonable employer would in practice handle a dismissal. Therefore there is a value to having lay members assisting the judge in that decision.
Lord Marland
Employment judges know as much about these things as we in this Room do. They have been doing case after case. We are presupposing that judges know nothing and that they are incapable of making decisions based on the rule of law on a subject that is determined by what the law says, not by: “Oh by the way, you must understand that there are extraneous circumstances that may affect the lay person, who quite rightly is sympathetic to them”.
Ultimately, the rule of law prevails. It is the interpretation of the law that prevails, and therefore it is a judge who is qualified to interpret the law, so I do not agree that there is a huge import in having lay members. Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Monks, who knows so much about this subject, quite rightly says, the judge has the opportunity to choose a panel, and we can get into arm-to-arm combat on whether it is two or four people. Whatever one says, you are damned, in a sense. The judge has the opportunity to have lay members if he thinks there are circumstances he does not understand or working practices with which he is not familiar. Ultimately, these people are being judged on what the law says by someone who can interpret the law, not by people who may or may not understand the law in some circumstances. I am afraid I am not persuaded in this instance—by people who have great knowledge in this subject—that it is in the interests of either party to have lay people, except on cases where the judge himself decides he needs that support.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, I have listened with great care to everything that was said by the Official Opposition in this context. I do not understand why the Lord Chancellor should feel in any way moved to make use of this clause if he was not going to add appointed members to the proceedings. It states that it is for a particular kind of case, but why would he do it if he had no intention of making use of the opportunity to provide the extra advice?
Baroness Brinton
Might it not be helpful to consider which proceedings ought to have a panel rather than a judge sitting alone? Picking up the point I made earlier about diversity, particularly where there is a claim of discrimination or of inequality of pay, it seems to be an obvious example of where diversity on a panel might provide sage advice as well as reassurance to both parties that diversity is being taken into account.
Lord Marland
My Lords, as far as Amendment 20FA is concerned, FA is probably quite appropriate because I am as slightly confused as noble Lords were. I have therefore invited my officials to have a look at this and to bring something forward before Report that clarifies the position because I am not as clear as I should be. I hope that satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Young. It is a victory for him. It is not our intention to use the Lord Chancellor’s power to prevent judges sitting with members where that judge considers it appropriate. The devil will be in the detail, and I think we should reword the detail. I concede that.
The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, on diversity was very important. We take it very seriously. It needs to be considered at all times, not just in this particular field. We take that point on board. With that, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Young, will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I hesitate to intervene, but I read Amendment 20G as having a different impact from the one that its mover has suggested. It may be that my legal wits are failing me, but surely new Section 111A(2), which it intends to amend, merely defines what the pre-termination negotiations are in subsection 12(1). It states that,
“‘pre-determination negotiations’ means any offer made or discussions held … with a view to”,
there being agreement between the employer and the employee. I do not see where the amendment comes into that. It is irrelevant in terms of who may assist the employee in arriving at that agreement, be it a trade union official, a workplace representative or a legal representative. The way that the amendment has been moved is not consistent with its potential impact on the clause concerned.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, I want to make it clear that I do not consider Clause 12 to be “Beecroft-lite”, whether that term is acceptable or not to my noble friend. I hope that there might be some information from the Minister to confirm that, but that was certainly not how I read it.
I want to raise a particular question and I apologise for not having given notice of it; I am more than happy to receive a written answer. I understand that an offer of a settlement agreement could not be used as evidence in an unfair dismissal claim but could be used as evidence in a discrimination claim. It is not unheard of at tribunals to hear both at the same time; therefore, which would take priority?
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I want to respond to a couple of points that have been made. I am happy to delete “Beecroft-lite”, if that is causing the noble Lord, Lord Deben, to break out in a rash. The plain fact is that as a result of the introduction of this clause, an employee can be called to a meeting without advance notice of the topic or a formal grievance between the employer and employee, and be presented with a proposal for them to leave their employment for a small payment and after signing a confidential settlement agreement.
I hesitate even more to dispute or cross swords with the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, because in some ways I do not feel qualified to do so. However, it is quite relevant that you should be accompanied by someone if you are going to be called to such a meeting. Perhaps we do not have the wording absolutely right and we will take that into account, but I am merely describing the situation that the amendment was intended to react to, and I apologise if it is not exactly right. However, I agree with my noble friend Lord Monks that this fundamentally changes the nature of employment. As my noble friend Lady Donaghy said, if we really want to give employers some helpful advice on employment relationships, this is not the route that we should going down or the advice we should be giving them. It represents all the negatives.
I am fascinated that termination of employment is the most important thing to focus on as the answer to our current employment problems. When the Chartered Management Institute tells me that only one in five managers receives any training at all these days, I consider that to be a far more important area for us to focus on. I do not make any apologies for the amendment, even though it may not be precisely right. The clause fundamentally changes the nature of the employment situation. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, on whether the amendment is unbalanced, we do not think it is. The clause as currently drafted is unbalanced because the employer has the right to call you in without any prior notice and for no apparent reason, and suggest that your employment should be terminated. If only employers could get their contracts of employment, their training and their appraisal procedures right. From my experience of dealing with employers, that is the sort of advice that we should be giving them.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I will be very brief. I think my noble friend Lady Turner has expressed our concerns quite clearly. I await with interest the Government’s assurances that they want to get this right. As it stands, we will obviously be returning to this clause on Report.
Baroness Brinton
I am sorry, I am trying to stand up but I am not very fast. I want to add to the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, about matters other than straight salary. The pension pot is one of them, but there are others that need to be taken into account, and I wonder if this has been overlooked or if it is intentional. If it is intentional, I would have real concerns, particularly about some of the pension issues.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, I hope the Minister will regard this as a late contribution to his consultation, but since the academic research on which it is based is 50 years old, and I have no idea whether it has been updated, he does not need to take it very seriously. I recall that when I set out in business 51 years ago, some very detailed academic research had been done in the context of executives—I am not necessarily talking about the shop floor—which found that each employee had a particular gradient for the ascent of their salary. If they went above a figure, whatever the figure was on the line, they were highly likely to fail. If they went below it, they were highly likely to seek another job. The research was sufficiently comprehensive to be an interesting observation and contribution to the process.