Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Berridge and Lord Howarth of Newport
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I would like to follow up the important points raised by my noble friend Lord Touhig and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, with some questions to the Minister, if I may. Can she tell us a little more about the cultural property protection unit that is already being established in the Ministry of Defence? What is its budget, and what assurances can she give us as to the future resources that will be made available to that unit? We know that there is always fierce competition for resources within the MoD budget and that periodically that budget is subject to a squeeze. Some people might see this particular function as somewhat marginal to the main purposes of the MoD—although I would assert that, for a civilised country, the purposes with which the unit is entrusted are extremely important—and the resources of that unit could be vulnerable. It would therefore be helpful if the Minister could tell us a little more about its scale, its functioning and its resources, and reassure us that it will continue to function at full strength.
Can the Minister also tell us how the lines of communication will work? How will the services and expertise of that unit be made available to people serving in the field, and not only those under the direct command of our own Armed Forces? In addition—my noble friend Lord Touhig raised this important point in the debate on two of his amendments—how will it be able to communicate to embedded forces: the people who are,
“subject to UK service jurisdiction serving under the military command of the armed forces of another country”—
and to “private military contractors” or individuals working “within private military contractors”? I have a memory that private military contractors, and perhaps Halliburton in particular, were guilty of grievous and appalling violations of cultural property in very important archaeological sites during the Iraq war, so how in practice does the Ministry of Defence expect to exercise its influence to prevent a recurrence of such disasters? This might be an unfair question to pose to the Minister personally, but if she is not yet briefed on it she may be able to write, or perhaps her noble friend Earl Howe would be good enough to write to us on these matters.
Baroness Berridge
On that discrete point, again, the resources that were available to the Metropolitan Police unit in this area were raised at Second Reading. If my noble friend is to write in relation to this matter, can she also tell your Lordships’ House how the military unit is to be set up in a way to pass relevant intelligence to the Metropolitan Police unit? It may glean information from the field that is relevant to the Metropolitan Police, which is not a usual situation to have, so it might be useful in that same letter to have clarification of the appropriate form of communication between that specialist unit and the private contractors, as well as back into the Met and probably more widely into Europol and so on.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, as I understand the situation in relation to the matters, for instance, with Daesh, they are currently covered by other domestic legislation as a result of a Security Council resolution. Therefore, they would be offences but only within the confines of that additional legislation.
This amendment has a lot to commend it. It is the first example of us perhaps attempting to look at the wider problem of international human rights law, which was mainly drafted at a time when the main villains we were trying to deal with were states. It is a problem that goes across many treaties: when the villains are non-state or third-party actors, we find that there are very large gaps in some of the treaties. We have to start somewhere in trying to look at these situations because, more and more, there is international human rights law in treaties for which we are going to have to do something to fill the gaps. Daesh is almost certainly not the last example of a group that we might have to deal with, with Boko Haram being just one of the others.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I would like to support what has already been said by my noble friend Lord Stevenson, the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge.
Article 19 of the convention, drafted 60 or so years ago, simply does not contemplate today’s realities. It addresses itself to situations of civil war. Of course, there is a civil war in Syria, but, although Daesh pretends to be a state, it is not a state. Not being a state, neither Daesh nor the Taliban nor Boko Haram can be covered by the provisions of the convention. So the formulation of international law is seriously defective in enabling the international community to address itself to the most appalling instances of iconoclasm and the systematic and strategic destruction of cultural heritage. That, of course, is what so many of us and so many members of the public are most intensely concerned about.
I think that they would be startled to think, as was said at Second Reading, that here we are legislating and in some sense playing an air shot; we simply are missing the ball. Of course it is right to implement the convention as it stands—nothing should disrupt that process—but I hope that when the Minister responds to this debate she will be able to tell us what the Government as a whole, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport intend to do in developing international discussions and diplomacy to move towards the possible creation of a third protocol. It could take a considerable amount of time but the very fact that there was momentum in that direction—momentum initiated by our own Government—would be an excellent thing and is really important in terms of the crisis that the world faces.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, this also brings into view an issue raised at Second Reading. Many of these articles, when they are the subject of legal proceedings or they are seized by the police prior to forfeiture, are then stored for months if not years. It is not at all clear that the Metropolitan Police has the necessary funding or facilities barring an evidence room in which to store what obviously can be items of cultural heritage. It is important that my noble friend the Minister should outline whether under cultural protection funds an agreement will be made with the British Museum that certain of these artefacts need to be stored very carefully. This is not like storing the evidence from crime scenes and we need to be assured on this point.
We may end up in situations where, at the end of lengthy court proceedings, we discover that the cultural artefacts have been stored in conditions that have caused them to deteriorate during the course of those proceedings. There seems to be ample funding in place, so perhaps the Minister could write to the British Museum to see how it could help the Metropolitan Police to ensure that items which are not forfeited or destroyed are not left in a condition that causes them to deteriorate. Funding and a simple arrangement could be made to preserve items during court proceedings, a point which as I say was raised at Second Reading.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, the noble Baroness has raised a very important point about the resourcing of what I think is called the Arts and Antiques Unit of the Metropolitan Police. It is staffed by the most excellent people but with funding that is derisory. Perhaps the Minister will be able to tell us what the present state of affairs is, but not long ago that unit was actually obliged to raise its own money because no funding was forthcoming for it from the main budget of the Metropolitan Police, yet it is performing a crucially important role in terms of our policies to protect and to prevent the looting and violation of cultural property and ensure that the law is upheld. It is acting on behalf of the nation as a whole, so to say the least it is deeply regrettable that it has not been provided with adequate resources.
The Minister spoke vigorously about the need for good co-ordination between the MoD and the Metropolitan Police and appeared to accept the argument that the resourcing has to be adequate to enable the purposes of the policy to be fulfilled. It would be helpful if she is able to say something on this matter.