Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Anne Begg and Jenny Willott

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dame Anne Begg]

At present, those on incapacity benefit—the existing benefit, which the Government are to replace—who have made the necessary national insurance contributions will keep that benefit until they return to work. Is the hon. Gentleman saying the costing should be done on any other basis? Obviously, the reason the Government are introducing the time limit is to save money: there can be no other reason, as the hon. Gentleman has effectively admitted. This is the result of a money-saving decision by the Government. It is not about being fair; it is about saving money to deal with the debt and the deficit, which were not caused by the people—and their partners, wives and husbands—who have tried throughout their lives to do the right thing.

I am conscious of the time, but I now want to say something about the youth rate. When I intervened on the Minister, I was genuinely trying to obtain some clarification, but I have ended up even more confused than before about how the youth rate will work and which groups of young people will no longer receive an independent—that word is important—income replacement benefit. They may receive non-means-tested benefits and, for instance, disability living allowance or the new personal independence payment, but they will not have any income.

Let me give an example of someone I think will be caught by that, someone who came to my constituency office a number of years ago. He was a young lad of 20 who had been in work for six months when he was diagnosed with a virulent condition. I cannot remember what it was, but it meant that he would be unlikely to work again, and indeed his condition was going to deteriorate. This young man lived with his girlfriend, who earned about £15,000 or £16,000 a year, just over the income support level. Under the measures proposed by the Government, he would not qualify for any income at all. He would be wholly dependent on his girlfriend, and the household income would consist only of her income. That does not strike me as right, and it does not strike me as fair. I should be grateful if, before we vote on the amendment, the Minister would tell us exactly which group of people will lose out as a result of the abolition of the contributory youth rate.

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

Does the hon. Lady accept that that young man would probably qualify for disability living allowance? He would therefore have some income, even if he did not receive means-tested ESA.

[Dame Anne Begg]

The household might possibly get housing benefit, but that goes on paying the rent. The young man might get disability living allowance, but that is paid because he has extra expenses due to his disability. What he does not have is an income. He has no money to go to the pub for a pint, to buy clothes, or to do anything that the rest of us, disabled or not, take for granted. He has no independent income. It is totally different if someone is out of work and unemployed. I am disappointed that those on the Government Benches cannot see that distinction, and cannot see that those who are long-term ill or disabled, and who have no prospect of improving their financial circumstances themselves because of the level of their disability, are being penalised by the Government. That is partly why I most certainly will support the Lords amendments this afternoon, and I encourage right hon. and hon. Members to do so, too.

[Jenny Willott]

Returning to the issue of the time-limited employment and support allowance, there is real concern about an arbitrary time limit. As was kindly pointed out by the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), at a party conference the Liberal Democrats showed their concern by passing a motion against arbitrary time limits. However, the amendment from the Lords and the Government’s original proposal both set arbitrary time limits; it is just that one is longer than the other. Neither of the options in front of us would get rid of an arbitrary time limit, as a number of Members have highlighted.

One way to make the system less arbitrary is to ensure that people are in the right category in the first place, with those in the greatest need in the support group, so that they are not affected by a time limit. My colleagues and I have looked long and hard at the issue, and the important thing is to get the assessment right in the first place and make sure that people are in the right category, as those in the support group are exempt from the time limit. We need to make sure that people who need long-term, indefinite support are in the support group and can get that. That is a more effective way to protect those who need the most help than changing one arbitrary time limit for another.

Pensions Bill [Lords]

Debate between Anne Begg and Jenny Willott

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Willott]

I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman could clarify to us where the money that he proposes spending would come from. Unless we tackle the financial crisis in this country and the financial circumstances that we face, my child and all our children and grandchildren will be paying off the debt. We have to tackle the debt—it is real money that needs to be found, and a £10 billion black hole would be a significant one to fill.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Can the hon. Lady explain where the Government are finding the £1 billion that is needed to make the change that is being announced today?

[Jenny Willott]

I am really sorry, but I cannot tell the hon. Lady where the Minister has found the money. I am sure that if she asks him the same question later, he will respond.

Pensions Bill [Lords]

Debate between Anne Begg and Jenny Willott

Monday 20th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Willott]

I absolutely agree. As the hon. Lady says, the point of Second Reading is that we have the opportunity to air a whole load of different options and concerns about the Bill, and as she says also, there have already been a couple of proposals for tackling the issue. I am sure that we will hear more as the debate goes on.

I completely agree that the Bill contains a huge amount that is valuable and important, so I am concerned about the Opposition saying that they will vote against it as a whole. Our constituents, living in our local communities, will be disappointed that the Opposition have taken that approach to the legislation and are not prepared to give a Second Reading to its positive elements.

[Dame Anne Begg]

I am sure that the hon. Lady received a large number of e-mails and letters from her constituents who are affected by this particular anomaly. Did any one of them say that she should vote for the Bill, or did they all encourage her to vote against it?

[Jenny Willott]

To be honest, I cannot remember whether anybody asked me to vote against the Bill. Most writers of the letters and e-mails that I have received raised concerns about the particular proposal in the Bill, and I agree with them. As I have already said, I share their concerns and have issues with what is proposed, but the whole point of Second Reading is that we have the opportunity to raise our concerns and to send the Bill into Committee, where people will be able to go through it clause by clause, to debate what the alternative may be and to have a chance really to scrutinise it. Today’s debate is not the time just to chuck it away.

[Dame Anne Begg]

If there are no changes in Committee and the Bill returns to the Floor of the House in the same position as it is in today, will the hon. Lady vote against it?

[Jenny Willott]

I cannot possibly say what I will do at that stage, because we do not know what shape the Bill will be in. I put the Bill in the safe hands—I am sure—of the Pensions Minister and of colleagues from all parts of the House, who will be able to look at it, try to refine it and send it back to us in the best possible shape. At that point, like all hon. Members, I will be able to decide whether to support it in its entirety.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Anne Begg and Jenny Willott

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Willott]

That is exactly the position that I am putting forward. I am concerned, because clause 83 still leaves it open for Ministers to cut the mobility component for those in care homes. As a number of Members have made clear, the concern about that is considerable.

[Dame Anne Begg]

I appreciate that the hon. Lady is trying to get the Government off the hook by supporting this review, but the original proposal came forward in the coalition Government’s first Budget—almost a year ago. Is she not as surprised as I am—if not shocked—that the work that she now advocates was not done before the proposal was made in the first place?

[Jenny Willott]

To risk the wrath that has been incurred by some colleagues on my side, I have to confess that I was somewhat surprised about that, but I also think it should have been done by the previous Government as well. It is pretty shameful that we have no understanding of where the funding for these costs has come from.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jenny Willott]

I am afraid that I will not, as I am aware that a lot of people want to speak.

I flagged up my concerns in Committee about whether there are some people for whom face-to-face assessments are not appropriate, and I was reassured by the Minister’s response, as she clearly accepted that they are not appropriate for everybody. She intends to allow Jobcentre Plus advisers discretion to consider individual cases and the Government seem to be thinking about taking the same approach to the need for ongoing face-to-face assessments. As long as there is discretion and an acceptance that such assessments are not appropriate for everybody, I hope that decisions will depend on the discretion and common sense of Jobcentre Plus advisers. Will the Minister reconfirm today that the Government are taking a slightly flexible approach?

The final issue that I want to flag up is that of sudden-onset conditions such as cancer, stroke or accidents, which the hon. Member for Glasgow East has mentioned. Such conditions are very different from conditions that gradually worsen. They do not give people time to adapt mentally, emotionally or financially to their new circumstances and in addition to the trauma of coping with diagnosis there are large up-front costs that start almost immediately. There might be a sudden loss of income and there is the cost of travel to and from hospital for regular treatments, as well as parking charges and new equipment that is needed. Such costs seem to be just the sort of thing that disability living allowance was designed to fund.

The change from three to six months before someone can apply for the new personal independence payment might hit those people the hardest, because they have to pay those costs so immediately up front. I understand that that group of people form a very small proportion of those who are currently on DLA—around 6%, I think—so it would not be expensive to treat them differently. There are knock-on implications for that group, as their carers will not be able to apply for carer’s allowance unless they have DLA, so both the claimant and the carer could lose income. I raised this issue in DWP questions on Monday and the Minister was kind enough to say that the Government are looking into the issue. I hope that they will look at what can be done to ameliorate the situation for that small and distinct group.

I welcome the Government’s moves to take into account concerns about the removal of the DLA mobility component, and although I welcome the decision not to push ahead with the original proposal to remove it entirely, I think the Bill leaves the door open for that to happen in future—perhaps not under this Government but under a future one—so I believe that any changes should pass through the House via affirmative resolution. I also believe that the situation needs to be monitored closely to ensure that we are protecting and enhancing the lives of some of the most vulnerable in society.

[Dame Anne Begg]

I suspect that many hon. Members will want to speak particularly about the removal of the higher-rate mobility allowance from residential care, so I shall not talk about that in any detail, but I think it is merely the top of a very pernicious iceberg, and the proposed amendments attempt to allay our concerns on that. This issue has captured the public imagination because it seems so grossly unfair and because people cannot understand what kind of Government would take away the independence of the, by definition, most disabled people in our community because they happen to live in a residential home or, for those whose families might lose access to an adapted vehicle, because they happen to go to a residential school.

I want to look more widely at the Government’s reasons for seeing fit to wipe away everything that was the DLA and bring in a new benefit called the personal independence payment. Let me address the Government’s analysis, or rather their argument—I should not have said analysis because part of the problem is that there has been no proper analysis and it is very difficult to get any data to suggest that some of what they have said is true; that might be the case for individual cases, but it is not widespread. The fact that the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) had to ask for some of those data may show that the Government lumbered into the whole area without knowing the details, and that their proposals were based on some perception of prejudice, or the need to save money, a point to which I shall return.

What were the criticisms that the Government laid at the door of DLA? They said there were no regular reassessments. That is easy to sort. We can put in regular reassessments for certain people. The Government said that too many people were getting DLA for life. Is that too much of a problem? If a person is quadriplegic after a cataclysmic accident, I am not sure they will get better. The reason many people who at present depend on DLA are so frightened by the changes is that they have an award for life; they do not have to worry about more reassessments. They have gone through assessments. They know they are profoundly disabled. Anybody looking at them can tell they are profoundly disabled, so why on earth do they yet again have to go through an assessment?

Another criticism of DLA was that some people were getting it automatically based on their condition. I challenge the Minister to tell us what it is about the condition of people who cannot feed themselves, cannot dress themselves, cannot move from one seated position to another, cannot walk or go to the toilet themselves that means they have to be assessed for their need for extra costs for care and mobility. I cannot think of a reason. Why should there not be an assumption that those individuals have their extra costs for care and mobility covered by DLA? That is what it was all about.

The Government’s main argument was that DLA was not well understood. That is not my experience from talking to people who receive DLA. It was one of the few benefits they did understand. DLA was for the extra mobility and care costs associated with disability. Compare that to the confusing rules for tax credits, or the in-work benefits or disability premiums associated with jobseeker’s allowance, employment and support allowance or incapacity benefit. We could look at contributory ESA as well. Those are confusing. The one benefit for disabled people that was clear—they knew what it was for—was disability living allowance. That is what they tell me and I am sure it is what they have told the Government. The vast majority of responses to the Government’s consultation made exactly that point: people valued DLA so greatly that they were frightened they might lose it.

Another criticism the Government have made of DLA is that the form was too long and complicated. That would be easy to sort. Make it shorter, make it less complicated and maybe put it online. There were solutions.

Those are the main criticisms of DLA that the Government have come up with, but none of them could not have been solved by some changes to the existing allowance. It did not require the sweeping away of DLA and its replacement with a new benefit, with new criteria. If the criteria were out of date, some of them could have been changed, but there was and is no need to change all of them. People who depend on DLA at present as a large part of their income are terrified, because they do not know what lies ahead. If the system is as bad as, according to the Government, it is at the moment, those people are worried that whatever the Government come up with will not be suitable for their needs. I have to tell the hon. Member for Cardiff Central that the previous Government did not collect data on double-funding mobility allowance in care homes, because they were not advocating the removal of DLA from that group of people.

The things that are particularly good but often forgotten about DLA include the fact that it is an in-work and out-of-work benefit. That element will become increasingly important as the Government proceed with their welfare reforms to put work obligations on people with profound disabilities. Anyone who is not assessed as being in the support group for ESA will have a work obligation. However, if those who end up in the work-related activity group find that they no longer qualify for DLA, it will be all the harder for them to find a job or to do the work-related activity that the Government expect them to do, because the extra financing to make that possible will have been removed.

The best thing about DLA was that we had for the first time in this country a benefit that followed the social model of disability, rather than the medical model. There is a worry that the clock will be turned back. The Government call their new benefit the personal independence payment, but DLA was a personal independence payment, so they did not need to change the benefit. DLA is personalised and represents what the Government say they want the benefit system to be because it is a dynamic benefit, which means that it helps people to lead an independent life by going out to work, visiting friends and doing all the things that everyone else takes for granted. Such independence includes the ability to live in the community, which can be achieved if a person can buy in care and get someone to come in to look after their care needs. All those things exist under DLA, so why is there a need to make a fundamental change to something that was not broken? Why fix something that was working reasonably well? No one would have complained if the Government had done a bit of tweaking, but such a fundamental change makes people especially worried.

The Red Book states that the Government want to cut 20% from the DLA budget. That means that the pot will be 20% smaller, but given the cost of reassessing everyone, about which we have heard today, the reduction in payments will be more than 20%, because some of the money that would have gone to disabled people so that they could live their lives will be invested into the private company that will carry out the reassessments. Given the difficulties of the ESA, there is suspicion about the accuracy of the reassessments. Even though Professor Harrington has made recommendations, there are still fears and worries about the way in which the work capability assessment is working, and disabled people’s experience of that assessment makes them especially worried about what will happen under PIP.

Housing Benefit

Debate between Anne Begg and Jenny Willott

Thursday 10th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Dame Anne Begg]

Very often, partly because of the publicity and the tabloid headlines, the assumption is that people on housing benefit are always out of work, when that is certainly not the case. In fact, in London it is particularly important that if low-paid people are to get work and to have work incentives, housing benefit must be set at the right level. The danger is that the gap between what they can get in housing benefit and what they can afford is too great; they end up not being able to get accommodation in the area in which they are working, which is even more important.

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

Is one of the problems not the fact that local housing allowances have driven up rents for everybody in the private rented sector, including people who are working? That has had a knock-on impact on both those who are receiving the LHA and on those paying all their rent. Even where the difference between those who are not receiving LHA and are paying the rent themselves is 90% of LHA rates, that is higher than it would have been had the rents not been driven up in the first place. It has a much broader knock-on impact across society.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Earlier in my contribution, I said that I do not believe that is the case in Aberdeen. Wherever the housing supply is less than the housing demand, it is the lack of supply and the ability of those in work to pay higher rents that drives up rents, not the level set for the local housing allowance. It is a chicken and egg situation. Why was the local housing allowance set at that level for that broad rental market area? It was because of the average house rental price in that area.

The hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) will have constituents in the private rented sector who will already, without any changes, be supplementing the local housing allowance out of their other benefits, in order to be able to afford the house. If rents were being driven up to local housing allowance levels, we would have seen a much smoother curve in the cost of all housing. All housing would cost the local housing allowance, but very often it still costs a lot more. That has been the problem that many are facing. It may be true in some areas, but that is what one hopes the research will find: that in the odd area a large number of people in the private rented sector are also on housing benefit. I understand that Blackpool is one of those areas. In such areas it may be the case that private rents have gone up to the LHA.

However, I do not believe that would be the case in more affluent areas. Unfortunately, in areas where that has happened, unless landlords reduce rents, we are still in a cycle of people not being able to afford the housing or to get other housing that they can afford, because of the changes. I have not said anything about the changes from the 50th to the 30th percentile: that also comes into play in a different area.

I was going to say something about the importance of housing benefit to work incentives. Perhaps that is something the Minister could answer. We know that housing benefit is to be in the universal credit, but we do not know the details of how it will be treated. One fear is that if housing benefit comes in as a flat level rather than the actual cost of the housing occupied, there might be a disconnect between what someone has to pay out and the effective withdrawal rates, so universal credit would not operate as it is meant to and ensure that works pays in all cases.

I am coming to the end of my comments, and I appreciate that I have not covered everything in the document. I mentioned that I held a housing summit—predominantly for housing associations but including those in the social rented sector in my constituency. The reason for that was that it became apparent that not only were there knock-on effects from the private rented sector that would result in higher demand for their properties, but there are also Government proposals that would affect them directly.

The biggest one that worried housing associations and the social rented sector is the under-occupancy rule, as it will affect all social rented housing as well as the private rented sector. The fear is that there will not be enough accommodation of the appropriate size for people to move. Consider the case of parents in their late-50s occupying a three-bedroom house, because it was the family home in which the family grew up before leaving. They have fallen out of work, which might be exacerbated by the increase in the state retirement age to 66. In their late 50s or early 60s, for the first time in their lives, they are now dependent on housing benefit in order to pay the rent, but they will only get housing benefit for a one-bedroom property, because that is all they will qualify for. Can the Minister say how the amount they get will be calculated? It could be, in an area such as Aberdeen, that what they pay for their three-bedroom council house is less than they would get in local housing allowance, even after the changes, for a one-bedroom flat in the private rented sector. There is a false economy if they are being forced to move into something more expensive, which they will get because it is in the private rented sector.

I could be flippant and say that there will be plenty of one-bedroom flats available because all the 25 to 35-year-olds will have had to move out of them to go into shared accommodation. However, I do not think that the 60-year-old mum and dad are going to move into the equivalent of a one-bedroom student flat, which a younger person has moved out of. This will cause great anxiety and worry. A lot of people will probably stay where they are, but they will be very short on the rent.

I know that the Minister is particularly concerned about pensioner poverty, but a large group of people who have fallen out of work towards the end of their working lives and who cannot get their state pensions until they are 66 will get caught up in this issue; it will not affect people who are over pension age, but it will affect those who are just below it, whose last years before they get the state pension will be spent living in poverty. They could become the group with the highest levels of poverty. The issue really must be considered. The social rented sector is particularly worried, because a lot of those people are already in the sector, and there is simply not enough stock to allow people to be moved around and housed according to the new occupancy rules.

When Labour was in government, many Opposition Members said it would be unfair for older people to have to sell their houses to pay for their care. They also said that it would be unreasonable for them to have to sell their houses because the council tax was too expensive. However, the Conservative coalition Government are saying that it is perfectly acceptable for those living in the social rented sector to have to move at a time in their lives when they should be settling down and moving towards retirement. The issue is a great concern, and people are very exercised by it. In rural areas, of course, there may not be houses of the appropriate size because they do not exist. People will therefore face an enormous shortfall between their rent and what they can get under the occupancy rules because of where they live.

I could say a lot more, but I am conscious that I have taken up a lot of time.

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[Dame Anne Begg]

I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon. Lady is saying, but it is actually much harder for those who are dependent on housing benefit to lead the kind of shared life that I think the Government envisage. Students sharing flats are not dependent on housing benefit and are therefore not hidebound by the rules of housing benefit and what can be rented as a result of housing benefit, and neither are groups of young professionals who might be sharing a house or a flat. They are not hidebound by the rules of tenancy agreements and what is legal and what is not illegal. Part of the problem is the lack of houses in multiple occupancy to which people on housing benefit can have access.

[Jenny Willott]

The hon. Lady makes a valid point. In areas of my constituency, a large number of students live in shared accommodation. If they are in a house in multiple occupancy, most students are not going to want to share with somebody who is on housing benefit, partly because it makes it difficult for council tax exemption and things like that. As soon as there are different people with different exemptions and different rules, as the hon. Lady has said, the financial arrangements for a household may become complicated.

Finally, the other issue about which I have some concerns is the move to uprating rents in line with the consumer prices index, rather than with average rents. The issue is a difficult one to resolve, and I completely understand why the Government have decided to propose the change. Increasing the local housing allowance in line with rents has, in large parts of the country, driven up rents significantly. As the hon. Lady has mentioned, if we set the LHA at the median rent, and if all the landlords currently charging less than that bring their rent up to the median, then the median rises. Rents inevitably go on an upward bend, which has happened in significant parts of the country.

I appreciate that the Government are tackling that issue to ensure that it does not happen and that people have a fair crack of the whip. No only are there implications for the vast amount of money that the Government are spending through the LHA, but there is a knock-on impact on those who are not receiving the LHA in a local area and are renting privately. It can make it even more difficult for those on low incomes to afford appropriate accommodation.

I have some concerns, however, about uprating rents in line with the CPI. The index reflects inflationary increases, but it is not designed to reflect changes in the housing market. I am glad that the Government will be reviewing the decision in a couple of years—2014, I think—after seeing the impact. If the LHA is not keeping track with what is happening in the rental market, we could end up with a big gap separating those on the housing allowance and those paying rent. That might have a serious impact on those people’s ability to get into work, as well as all the other positive things the Government are driving forward.

A number of hon. Members have mentioned that the whole situation is driven by our not having enough social housing in the UK. It is crucial that we build more social housing, if we are to tackle any of the issues.

To get in my party political pop for the afternoon, both the previous Labour and Tory Governments sold off more than they built, which is why we are in such a mess in the first place. After the Thatcher-Major Government, by 1997 there were 1.1 million fewer social homes, which is a huge number. Then, after 13 years of Labour in power in this country, there was still a drop of another 250,000 in social housing. By the time Labour left power last year, there were 1.7 million families on housing waiting lists, which is such a vast number that it will take much greater changes than those to the housing benefit rules if we are to do anything about it.

I am glad that the Lib-Dems in government are ensuring that something will happen. The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell), announced that more than 150,000 affordable homes will be built over the next four years. That is a start, although clearly not enough when we have such a massive deficit of social housing in this country. At least it is progress in the right direction, rather than going backwards. I hope that, whatever we think about the changes, people will fall in behind the building programme to ensure that it happens, so that we can make some progress and people can afford homes to live in.