Amendment of the Law

Debate between Anne Begg and Baroness Burt of Solihull

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dame Anne Begg]

What I have said is based on a cursory glance at the Red Book, but the evidence from the Welfare Reform Bill, which states that those in residential care will not get higher-rate mobility DLA, and from the Red Book makes it appear that the Government still intend to take the mobility element away from such people, albeit two years later. Those of us who said that the proposal was unfair thought we had won the battle, but it now appears that we have not won it at all. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, because I know that Members of all parties objected to the proposal. I hope that he will put pressure on his Government to reconsider the matter.

I wish to say a wee bit about the merging of national insurance and income tax. It was trailed slightly in the press, but we needed to find out what it meant in reality. The Chancellor said it would not be the end of the contributory principle, but it is very hard to see how it cannot be. There needs to be a debate about the future of that principle, because other measures that the Government have taken have undermined it. People are quite shocked about what is happening, having paid their national insurance all their lives thinking that they were paying into an insurance scheme and that they would get money out of it when something went wrong. People get only six months’ jobseeker’s allowance of £65 a week as a result of their NI contributions when they are unemployed. Under the Welfare Reform Bill, people will get only one year’s sickness benefit under the new employment and support allowance as a result of such contributions. Most people assume that they get the basic state pension because of their NI contributions. That is the big one, because people are quite happy to pay their NI contributions for that, but the Government plan to introduce a flat-rate, £140 a week state pension. Such contributions pay for the basic state pension state and the earnings-related pension scheme as well as pension credit, and everything then gets divided out.

It is difficult to see how pensions can be based on a contributory record, as the Red Book says they are, if everybody gets the same. The Work and Pensions Secretary said a couple of weeks ago that he will introduce the flat-rate pension, and that that will help women, but it will do so only if it is not dependent on contributions. The Government cannot have it both ways. Either people get the flat-rate pension based on their working record and NI contributions, which will be part of income tax, or they get it because they have fulfilled other criteria, such as residency. The country and all parties in the House need a proper debate on how we fund welfare, the basis of our welfare system, and the future of the contributory principle.

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

The Liberal Democrats take pensions very seriously. I acknowledge that a lot of consultation and working out must be done, but does the hon. Lady welcome a basic state pension of £140 a week?

[Dame Anne Begg]

I advocated a universal or citizens pension as a Government Member for many years, but one strong argument against such a pension is that many people are very attached to the contributory principle. That came out in the original discussions, when the Government of the day decided to reduce the state pension qualifying years down to 30 for both men and women.

Part of the problem in this country is that we have no means other than NI contributions by which to determine who should qualify for a state pension, because we do not keep residency records, which is how the judgment is made in, for instance, New Zealand. The problem in this country is more complex than it may seem.

The state pension age is about to go up to 66 for men and women by 2020. This was meant to be a Budget for growth, but the very first thing the Chancellor spoke of was the downgrading of the growth figures. I am worried about where all the jobs will come from given the increased number of people in the workplace. The numbers in the work force are expected to increase because of the new work obligations on jobseeker’s allowance claimants; because lone parents will be expected to look for work when their youngest child is five; because 30% of incapacity benefit claimants will be assessed as fully fit for work and expected to go into the workplace; and because another 30% of such claimants will end up in the work-related activity group of employment and support allowance. Huge numbers of people are expected to go into the workplace. It is difficult to get figures on how many more people will be looking for work because the Department for Work and Pensions could not give them to us, but on top of those, the raising of the state pension age means that even more people will be looking for work.