Criminal Justice Bill (First sitting)

Anna Firth Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Metcalfe]

Q So there would be an offence of being seen with a weapon, as opposed to actually carrying it and using it. Is that what you are saying?

Chief Constable Stephens: There are a number of provisions here, including the ability to seize knives, even though they are lawfully being held, if we suspect they are going to be used in criminality. We see that as a very important preventive measure.

[Anna Firth (Southend West) (Con)]

Q On that point, the ability of the police to seize knives that may be lawfully held in private but that the police suspect may be used to threaten is now contained in clause 18. Is clause 18 going to be very beneficial to you operationally?

Chief Constable Stephens: Yes. We agree that it is going to be beneficial.

[Anna Firth]

Q Coming to other areas of knife crime, can you give us some examples of how the new offence of possession of a knife or offensive weapon with intent to use in unlawful violence bridges the gap in legislation between simple possession and using a bladed article or offensive weapon to threaten or harm someone? How will that help the police to tackle knife crime in a more proactive manner?

Chief Constable Stephens: Again, I will keep it very brief, as I can provide written examples. We have seen on social media—on Snapchat-type channels—threats being made to rival groups. I have seen examples from colleagues in the Metropolitan police from the Notting Hill Carnival, where the threat was towards a group of people who might be present in a particular locality. The ability to have stronger provisions to prevent and disrupt potential violence is really important to us.

[The Chair]

If there are no further questions, I thank the witness for their evidence and we will move on to the next panel.

Examination of Witnesses

Graeme Biggar, Gregor McGill and Baljit Ubhey gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jess Phillips]

I am done.

[Anna Firth]

Q Back to knife crime and clause 10 of the Bill. As you know, clause 10 will introduce a higher maximum penalty for manufacturing, importing, supplying or selling offensive weapons such as zombie knives and flick knives, especially to under-18s—to children. Amazingly, at the moment the penalty for that is only six months, and it is a summary-only offence in the magistrates court. Under the Bill, it will become an indictable offence carrying a penalty of two years. Do you think that is a good change, which will lead to longer sentences? Because it is indictable, it will give the police more time to investigate these crimes, particularly when they are online sales using web app groups and so on, and it takes a lot longer to get the data.

Baljit Ubhey: Certainly the fact that it is an either-way offence and you do not have the challenges of the six-month time limits that summary-only offences create —given, as you say, the complexities of how these knives are manufactured, sold and so on—will helpfully close a bit of a gap.

Graeme Biggar: We agree with that point and the points that Gavin made earlier in relation to it.

[The Chair]

Apologies to Vicky: I understand that you could not hear me, down at the bottom. If any Members cannot hear, please raise your hand to let me know and I will endeavour to speak up.