Covid-19 Update

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 2nd February 2021 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

I pay tribute to all those working in Harlow, including at the Harlow mass vaccination site, and also to the GPs and the pharmacists who are working so hard to vaccinate people right across Harlow.

On the question of the JCVI ordering and the prioritisation for vaccination, as my right hon. Friend knows, I think the best approach is to take the clinical advice and to follow that clinical advice. The sorts of considerations that he raises are an important part of the JCVI deliberations. I know it has looked very closely at the subject he raises. What matters now that it has made and published its decision is that we drive through the vaccination programme to get through as many of those groups as possible, and I am very pleased to see the hundreds of thousands of new vaccinations that are taking place every day.

[Dame Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab) [V]]

SAGE warned about the dangers of the South Africa strain weeks ago, but the Prime Minister dragged his feet, and he has now decided on a partial quarantine arrangement that SAGE has already warned will be ineffective in preventing further introduction of this variant. Is it not the case that, once again, the Government have acted too little and too late to stop the spread of this new and dangerous variant in the UK?

[Matt Hancock]

No, on the contrary, we removed the travel corridors to ensure there is a self-isolation requirement that is mandatory for all those who are coming to this country. Protecting this country from new variants coming from abroad is important, hence we have taken the action swiftly, and we did that on the basis of the scientific evidence.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 30th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab) [V]]

The Secretary of State has today announced 23 more areas that will move into tier 4. Three quarters of the country is now in tier 4. How long before he looks at this again and can make other announcements? What further escalation will he be considering if even tier 4 does not bring down these soaring infection rates?

[Matt Hancock]

For areas in tier 4 where we still need to get the infection rate down, the most important thing we can all do is take responsibility to restrict the spread of infection, because this new variant spreads so easily from person to person. Everybody has to behave. If everybody behaves like they might have the virus and therefore restricts their social contact, that is the best way we can get these rates down. It does take all of us do this; it is not just about the rules that are set out from this Dispatch Box and voted on by this House.

I know that people in Wallasey and across Liverpool have done so much and got the rates right down under control, but unfortunately they have started to rise again, and with the new variant, it has been necessary to put Liverpool into tier 3. I just hope, like the rest of the country, that we can get out of this after the next few difficult weeks.

Coronavirus Vaccine

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 2nd December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, I absolutely will. I pay tribute to their work on preparing for the vaccine roll-out, and also their work in keeping the virus under control, which is such an important task, is so difficult, and has consumed so much effort this year, yet there is still more work to be done over this winter to get the vaccine rolled out.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Two injections per person for everyone in the country is going to take an awful long time. The Prime Minister was hoping that it would be done by Easter. Does the Health Secretary share that timetable or will he publish another one? Is he planning on making this vaccine available again next year, since we do not know how long immunity lasts, and covid is likely to be endemic and with us for some time to come?

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Lady asks two incredibly important questions, the first of which the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) asked and I did not answer, for which I apologise. The speed at which we can continue this roll-out will be determined by the speed at which Pfizer can manufacture and whether the AstraZeneca Oxford vaccine, of which we have 100 million doses on order, is approved by the MHRA. I am afraid that I cannot answer the hon. Lady’s question on the timetable, or indeed the hon. Gentleman’s, because it is dependent on the approval of AstraZeneca and the manufacturing process of the Pfizer vaccine.

On the hon. Lady’s second question, I have completely forgotten what it was. [Hon. Members: “Next year.”] Next year, yes, and whether this vaccine is only short-term. One of the reasons we have 357 million doses from seven different vaccines is to be able to vaccinate with further doses if that is needed in due course, whether that is through re-procurement of one of the existing vaccines or by switching to a different vaccine if that is clinically appropriate. That is absolutely part of the potential future plans that we have under consideration, but it is too early to know the answer to that question as well.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 17th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

We are now issuing test kits to 84 directors of public health across the country. I am very happy to work with Derbyshire and Derby to make sure that my hon. Friend’s request is taken up and we can make this happen.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

What recent plans he has made for the distribution of covid-19 vaccines.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Programme motion
Monday 19th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

We are increasing the communications to people about the benefits of vitamin D, and as I said to the House on Thursday last week, we are also instituting further research into the points that he, as an experienced and qualified medical professional, sets out so clearly.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

I am sure the Secretary of State will agree with me that to be effective, rules must be understandable and simple. Why in Merseyside, which is currently in tier 3, were all the gyms forced to close, but soft play was left open, and in Lancashire all the gyms were left open and soft play was closed? Surely that does not make any sense at all. Will he publish the evidence that he has and be consistent across tiers? Either all the gyms are open or they should all close. Which is it to be?

[Matt Hancock]

The baseline for tier 3 is set across the board, and then further measures are set out in consultation and agreement with the local area.

Public Health: Coronavirus Regulations

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 13th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

Two weeks ago, I pledged to the House that for significant national measures we will consult Parliament in advance of their coming into force wherever possible, and today we deliver on that commitment with votes tonight on national measures to slow the spread of coronavirus. This pandemic remains a formidable threat. Our strategy is to suppress the virus, supporting the economy, education and the NHS, until a vaccine makes us safe, and I must report to the House that the number of cases of coronavirus has quadrupled in the last three weeks.

There are now more people in hospital with coronavirus than there were on 23 March, and in the last four weeks hospitals in the north-west and north-east of England have seen a sevenfold increase in the number of covid patients in intensive care. In those worst-affected areas, the virus is spreading just as quickly in older age groups, not just among younger adults.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Given that Liverpool city region, which includes my constituency of Wallasey, was placed in tier 3 yesterday, could the Secretary of State outline whether there are plans to reopen or revive the Nightingale hospitals to serve that region? I do not mean the hospital in Manchester.

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, as the hon. Lady will know, three Nightingale hospitals were put on alert yesterday to be reopened. The closest Nightingale is in Manchester, but we keep that under review because expanding the capacity of the NHS is one of the things that we can do. Nevertheless, no matter how big the NHS is, if the virus is not under control it will make more people need hospital treatment than there could possibly be hospital treatment available for. While we are, of course, restarting the Nightingales, which have been mothballed for months, that is only a precaution; it cannot be the full answer to the question. We had a very good discussion yesterday about the measures in Liverpool city region, which I will come on to in some detail.

Covid-19

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Monday 28th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

I thought this might come up. I was going to develop the argument further before coming to the nub of that particular point, but, since my right hon. Friend gives me the opportunity, I strongly agree with the need for us in this House to have the appropriate level of scrutiny. As the Prime Minister set out last week, we have already put in place further measures. The aim is to provide the House with the opportunity to scrutinise in advance through regular statements and debates, questioning the Government’s scientific advisers more regularly—that has already started—gaining access to local data and having the daily calls with Ministers, including my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General.

We are looking at further ways to ensure that the House can be properly involved in the process—in advance, where possible. I hope to provide the House with further details soon. I will take up the invitation to a further meeting with my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady), whom I have already met to discuss this matter, to see what further progress can be made. I hope that that, for the time being, satisfies my right hon. Friend.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

If the right hon. Member considers the efficacy of parliamentary scrutiny, has he looked at what the New Zealand Parliament has done? It has set up a special Select Committee, led by the Leader of the Opposition and with an Opposition majority on it, to subject the Government’s performance to more direct and transparent scrutiny. It appears to have worked very well indeed. Perhaps he would consider that this Parliament could behave in that way.

[Matt Hancock]

The structure of Select Committees is a matter for the House, of course, and far be it from me to impinge on the business of the House and the proper responsibilities of the Leader of the House. I welcome the scrutiny that this House gives. I have answered seven urgent questions, given 12 statements and taken 800 interventions since the start of the pandemic. I am committed to continuing the engagement.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 8th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

I entirely understand the point, and I can see the argument that is being made. The challenge is, since lab capacity is what we need more of, that if we take more swabs locally and send them in to the lab, we need to have the lab capacity to be able to turn them round. Otherwise, we get a much slower response, which means that we are not getting back to people fast enough for them to be able to act. That is the nature of the challenge, and the answer is more lab capacity, which is what we are driving through.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

In Wirral, there has been a sudden, sharp rise in covid-19 infections, with yesterday’s figures standing at 33 infections per 100,000. What extra assistance can the Secretary of State promise to my local authority, which is fighting hard to suppress this outbreak? On Test and Trace, if he does not want a reorganisation of Test and Trace because he thinks it will slow down progress, can he tell us why he is reorganising Public Health England in the middle of this dangerous pandemic?

[Matt Hancock]

Well, of course I am improving the public health responses by bringing together different organisations. I am not sure that the hon. Lady is doing anything other than—[Interruption.] Well, I am not going to query her motives, because we have worked together, at the start of this crisis especially. On her question about the Wirral, absolutely, we are vigilant in looking at the Wirral. That will be reconsidered in the Joint Biosecurity Centre silver meeting tomorrow and in the JBC gold on Thursday. Part of the improved data that we have now, compared with a few months ago, means that we will be able to pinpoint where the problem is and, working with the council, make recommendations on what action needs to be taken.

Coronavirus Response

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Monday 20th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

Yes—and I imagine that you might have an interest in this too, Mr Deputy Speaker. The extra funding announced on Friday by the Prime Minister of course also means that we will be increasing the funding that goes to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. We can provide a high-quality response to this disease only if we have the financial firepower to support the NHS and the action necessary. That is only possible because we have one United Kingdom. Scotland will receive an extra £250 million with which to tackle the disease; Wales will receive an extra £150 million and Northern Ireland an extra £90 million. That means that across the UK we can fight the disease better because we are all part of the same UK.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Earlier this month, Baroness Harding told a House of Lords Select Committee that people were unwilling to self-isolate because of financial pressures. We also now learn that test and trace does not make the same inroads in poorer areas, where the pressure not to self-isolate because of financial pressures is higher, as it does in more well off areas. Can I again ask the Secretary of State to make an announcement about sick pay and access to extra help for those who need to self-isolate but who perhaps cannot really afford to do so?

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, but the No. 1 cause of people not self-isolating is if they have coronavirus without symptoms and do not get a test. That is where we need the most effort. However, I hear the point that she is making, and I will take it away.

Coronavirus Update

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 14th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

This attempt to divide us is very unfortunate. The UK Government have put testing capacity into Wales that is bigger than NHS Wales’s own capacity, and we do that in Scotland as well with the same effect. We are working together in partnership across the United Kingdom, and, absolutely, we are making the preparations for winter, as the right hon. Lady and every other Member of this House would expect.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

If test and trace is to work effectively and people take the advice they are given via that service, some of them will find it difficult, because they will be earning no money; there is a choice to be made between self-isolating and being able to pay their bills. So will the Secretary of State look once more at the issue of sick pay for those, especially in local lockdowns, who are asked to self-isolate on behalf of all of us?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, of course we keep this under review. The evidence shows that the most important difference that we can make to get yet more people into the test and trace system is for everybody who has any symptoms at all to get a test if in doubt. That is where the biggest gap is, and that is partly due to the number of cases where people have no symptoms, when of course they would not know that they need to get a test; finding them is incredibly important and is done through contact tracing. We must make sure that if anybody has coronavirus symptoms, and therefore needs a test, they come forward and get a test: if in doubt, get a test. It is of course an important consideration to make sure that people are supported if they need to isolate, and we are working closely with business to ensure that happens.

Coronavirus

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 7th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

My hon. Friend raises a really important point. PPE is a significant extra cost right across the health and care system. Dentists who are on NHS contracts have of course had those contracts paid throughout, even when routine dentistry was not open. I am really glad that we have now managed to get routine dentistry open. We are working with dentists and their representatives to ensure that we tackle the real-world challenge of having high-quality and safe dentistry while ensuring that dental practices can also be financially sustainable. It is a challenging problem and I pay tribute to the dentists who are working with us on it.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Does the Health Secretary agree with the Prime Minister’s despicable comments, blaming care workers for the huge death toll in care homes, or will he admit that his Government’s own failings left these low-paid and undervalued carers with little or no protective clothing, and many without access to sick pay, fighting a losing battle against this awful disease at the height of the pandemic?

[Matt Hancock]

I have been clear that we have been learning about this virus and how best to deal with it throughout. My admiration for those who work in social care is second to none. One of the good things about this crisis is that it has shown the whole country how much we value not just those who work in the NHS, but those who work right across social care, caring for the most vulnerable.

Coronavirus

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 11th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

We are increasing the number of beds, and, by moving away from some of the elective activity, making more beds available. However, I want to pick my hon. Friend up on one thing: as and when this virus becomes widespread, isolation becomes less important than ventilation. The normal flu procedures are that keeping several people who all have the same flu in one room—in one ward—is absolutely fine, because they cannot infect one another because they all have the same disease. Isolation is vital in the contain phase. It is still important in delay, but as we get through to mitigating the impact, the need for isolation facilities is less important.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

The Chancellor’s announcements earlier today were very welcome, but will the Secretary of State help to cast a bit more light on the announcement about employment and support allowance? There are millions of people, as he knows, who do not qualify for statutory sick pay. The effectiveness of self-isolation and doing the right thing relies absolutely on many people who do not have standard employment contracts being able to be confident that if they self-isolate, they will not lose out, yet the ESA system works in retrospect, with delays, and is quite bureaucratic. Will he say a bit to us tonight about how that is going to be mitigated so that those who are not on standard employment contracts will know that they can do the right thing and not suffer?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, we will publish more on this in very short order. Some of the changes in this area will be in the Bill, but some will be in secondary legislation, so that they can go at a faster pace, potentially, than the Bill. The ESA (C), as it is known, comes in only after seven days and bringing that down is an important part of the reassurance that the hon. Member seeks.

Coronavirus

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Monday 9th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

Those sorts of discussions are going on, led by the Treasury and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Millions of people in this country live alone, and many elderly people rely on their relatives visiting them to keep them able to live in their own homes. This activity may well be disrupted if people get ill or have to be isolated. How then will those vulnerable people, who rely on outsiders to be able to live, get their food delivered and be looked after, possibly cope?

[Matt Hancock]

This is an extremely important consideration, because in keeping people safe from coronavirus we also need to support people to live their normal lives. Many people rely on support from others who come to them, whether through social care in the formal system or, as in many cases, through informal care and support. We may need to see more of that, but it will have to be done properly in order also to protect the people involved from the coronavirus.

Coronavirus

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 3rd March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

The question of how we deliver and who delivers NHS services is a matter for the NHS, and making sure that we use all the health facilities available is of course something that the NHS is considering.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that, in order for self-isolation to work, no individual, whatever their circumstances, should be out of pocket for doing the right thing? As my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) said, currently, millions of people who work in the gig economy and do not qualify for sick pay would be out of pocket for doing the right thing. Does the Secretary of State agree that solving this problem and giving people the confidence that they need to do the right thing by self-isolating is one of the most important things that he can do in the next few days, to ensure that we can continue with containment?

[Matt Hancock]

There is a huge number of things that we need to do in the next few days and, as I have said, this area is under review.

Coronavirus

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 26th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The vaccination rate was, I think, at a record level this year, and it is very important. The simple measures that everybody can take, such as washing hands and using tissues, protect us against flu as well as coronavirus.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

The four people who were welcomed to Arrowe Park Hospital developed symptoms subsequent to coming to this country, despite being tested extensively before they were allowed to fly. Does that cause the Secretary of State any worry? Will he say what that might mean for whether people are infectious before they are symptomatic?

[Matt Hancock]

It is my job to worry about all those things. The answer is that that sequence of events confirms to me the importance of quarantining people. I know that there were some concerns about quarantine, but I think it showed that we were dead right to quarantine people because it turned out that they tested positive during the quarantine. Mr Speaker, I just want to put on the record my thanks to the hon. Lady, and everyone in her constituency and the Wirral more broadly, who have risen to this challenge.

Wuhan Coronavirus

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 11th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, of course I can give that assurance. We have been clear all along that we have expected cases and that we are doing everything we can, but we also need to prepare for what might happen in future.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Given that we are now experiencing spread between people who have not been to China, as the Brighton cases show, will the Health Secretary say something about how people can distinguish between the ordinary symptoms of flu and the novel coronavirus symptoms, because China is now not the only lexicon?

[Matt Hancock]

That is a very good point. People should follow the clinical advice for the symptoms they have, with there being, of course, a much higher risk if they have travelled to one of the affected areas. In that case, they should call 111 and present, and have the test. The testing is available precisely to distinguish the difference, because it is not reasonable to ask ordinary members of the public to know the difference between an old coronavirus and the novel coronavirus, or indeed, between flu and coronavirus.

Wuhan Coronavirus

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Monday 3rd February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

The engagement with the devolved Administrations has been incredibly important in this so far, and will continue to be. Each of the devolved nations has a chief medical officer, and the team of the four CMOs is an incredibly important forum for making sure that the advice going to all four nations is clinically justified and correct. That has been working very well. Personally, I have spoken to the Ministers involved as well. We have a principle that we share information and publications before they go public, and thus far that has worked well. The hon. Member is right about the requests for equipment. We have sent out equipment to China, and we of course stand ready to respond to any further requests it has.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that learning about the decision on quarantine from BBC News, rather than being told about it by his Department, which is what happened to me and most of my colleagues on the Wirral, was an error? That meant we were inundated with emails and phone calls from very worried constituents, and we had been given no briefings from which we could get any reassurance. Will he undertake to this House that such a thing will not happen again? When health emergencies like this happen, we are all in the same boat. We have to be able to reassure our constituents, and we cannot do that if we have not been briefed ourselves. Will he thank his junior Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), and the chief medical officer for the briefings that we have received subsequently, but will he please learn that lesson?

[Matt Hancock]

I called the hon. Member whose constituency includes Arrowe Park. This was a very fast-moving situation, so being in contact with the local MP was incredibly important. Subsequently, as we were able to, we were also in contact with all Wirral MPs. However, I absolutely take the point: the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) would have preferred a briefing in advance; her colleague in whose constituency the hospital is got such a briefing. I apologise that that did not manage to get done in what was, as she will understand, a fast-moving circumstance, when our first priority was the protection of the public and of course those being evacuated.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

My hon. Friend has made the case very powerfully for the future of Telford Hospital, and I have enjoyed working with her, but it is true that the call-in powers that I have as Secretary of State can be exercised only when a scheme is referred to me by a local council. Should that happen, I will consider it very carefully.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State now come clean with the House and admit that the Lansley Act, which fragmented the NHS into tiny pieces, caused huge inefficiencies; and that successive Governments, including the one of whom he is a member, have starved the NHS of resources, which has caused a lot of the problems that our constituents face in increased waiting times and increased pressure on staff?

NHS Long-term Plan

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Monday 7th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

Yes. I am a strong supporter of district general hospitals and community hospitals. So often, local matters because it matters to patients and their families. If someone is having a highly complicated procedure, they will want to be in the very best place in the country—or, indeed, in the world—but often they will want to be close to home as well. That matters for small hospitals and district general hospitals such as the one on which my hon. Friend’s constituents rely so much.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has waxed lyrical today about the NHS becoming a learning organisation, being transparent and admitting its mistakes. Will he therefore set the trend and lead by getting up at the Dispatch Box and apologising to this House for the fragmentation and chaos caused by the Lansley Act?

[Matt Hancock]

We will listen to and learn from what clinicians say about what legislative changes are needed now. This document is all about concentrating on what is the right thing for the future, rather than the blame culture that we are trying to get rid of in the NHS.

The Economy

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Ms Eagle]

No.

How strange, then, that the Liberal Democrat election slogan was, “No more broken promises”.

[Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ms Eagle]

No, I am not giving way, especially not to the hon. Gentleman, who has not even deigned to be present in the House until now. [Interruption.]

Fuel Prices and the Cost of Living

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

rose—

[Ms Eagle]

I give way to the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), because he stood first.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [Lords]

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Monday 14th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

The Bill makes changes to the responsibilities exercised by the Treasury in fiscal policy making, establishes the interim Office for Budget Responsibility on a permanent statutory footing and modernises the governance arrangements of the National Audit Office. I wish to make it clear at the outset that we support the sensible changes to the governance of the NAO which, as the Minister pointed out, are proposed in parts 2 and 3 of the Bill. We do so not least because they were our reforms. As she was good enough to observe, we set them out in the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill towards the end of the previous Parliament. As someone who has served three times as a member of the Public Accounts Committee—once in opposition, once in government and once as a Treasury Minister—I am glad to see the reforms getting on to the statute book, despite the extra obstacle presented by the intervention of a general election. I also wish to thank the Minister and the Government for the open mind that they showed to Labour amendments during the passage of the Bill in the Lords. I hope that she will show a similar approach to the amendments that we will table in Committee.

The creation of the OBR seeks to apply to one narrow part of the UK’s fiscal institutions some of the autonomy that Labour brought to monetary policy when we made the Bank of England independent—of course, we took steps to make the Office for National Statistics independent too. As the House of Commons Library has pointed out, there are examples of similar bodies in other countries. Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Hungary, Holland, Slovenia, Sweden and the USA all have some arrangements for independence in forecasting and analysis of the national fiscal situation.

The reform was initially sold by the Chancellor, with much fanfare, as one that would take the politics out of economic forecasting. In doing that, he gave the entirely false implication that previous Ministers had somehow been instructing hapless officials in the Treasury to produce incorrect but politically convenient forecasts. The reality is that the previous Government published a range for gross domestic product growth, and in all the years before the crash on only two occasions did growth fall below the range that the Treasury published. In the other years, the figure fell either within the range or above it, thus showing that we were exercising caution. We were not fiddling the figures. That level of accuracy is about all that any of us can expect from economic forecasting, which is a notoriously unreliable art rather than an objective science. Let me share a quote with the House:

“Economic forecasting, by its very nature, is subject to uncertainty. Our judgement is that, at this stage of the economic cycle, the outlook is even more uncertain than usual.”

That was the OBR’s comment on its forecasts in June 2010.

However, I have found evidence of one occasion when a Chancellor overruled the Government’s forecasters, and the House may be interested to hear about it. In 1996, the then Chancellor, who is now the Secretary of State for Justice, was reported to have increased the growth forecast from 2.5% to 3% in order to make way for pre-election tax cuts. The chief forecaster he overruled was, by some odd coincidence, Sir Alan Budd, the curiously short-lived first head of the interim OBR.

[Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

I am sure that the hon. Lady was not about to move on from talking about forecasts having spoken only about growth forecasts, not about the previous Government’s dreadful record on fiscal and deficit forecasts.

[Ms Eagle]

The important thing to note about forecasts, particularly those on the tax take, is that it is difficult to be accurate with them. When I served on the Treasury Committee prior to becoming a Treasury Minister, there was comment on how accurately the Treasury was able to forecast the tax take. Clearly, it is more art than science, so the House would be mistaken to believe that because something has been forecast, it is automatically an objective certainty. Those of us who deal with these issues, on both sides of the House, know that forecasting the economy can be as uncertain as forecasting the weather—Michael Fish found out how uncertain that can be one night. Forecasts are what they are; they can sometimes be wrong and sometimes they can be accurate. I honestly think that, in general—I am not making a party political point—the Treasury has a reasonably good record on forecasting.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Eagle]

The important issue is how the independent forecasts interact with what happens in the economy and how that can change and be affected by the Government’s economic decisions.

[Matthew Hancock]

I enjoy debating with the hon. Lady, so I am extremely grateful to her for giving way. She has just prayed in aid the OBR, saying that it had forecast that the deficit would fall, but she has also said that under the Government’s plan the deficit will not fall. The OBR’s forecast is based on the Government’s plan, so does she agree with herself or not?

[Ms Eagle]

This is how we can get into difficulty with forecasts, which are static when they are made but apply to a dynamic situation. The hon. Gentleman knows, for example, that our debates in the House are, in part, about the effects on growth of a drastic fiscal consolidation. Our contention has always been that cutting too far too fast will suppress growth to such an extent that the deficit reductions that were hoped for will not come about. That is an essential part of the economic debate that, as far as I can see, we have been having since the Budget in June last year.

Forecasts can be affected by subsequent events and by Government policies. That demonstrates that what matters most is not forecasting for its own sake, but the judgment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government, and the extreme fiscal choices that they have made.

Comprehensive Spending Review

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Thursday 28th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Ms Eagle]

That is not my statement: it is a statement by the Office for Budget Responsibility. It is also the figure that was revealed accidentally the day before the Chancellor’s statement by the Chief Secretary when he was filmed in the back of his car with open documents. It is not my figure. The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) should remember that the Ministry of Justice is already planning 14,000 redundancies, as we know from a leak, and has set aside—

[Matthew Hancock]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ms Eagle]

No, I shall finish answering the question. The hon. Gentleman can sit down and be patient, and we will see whether I give way to him a little later.

The Ministry of Justice is already planning cuts of 14,000 in front-line staffing. It has also set aside £230 million to pay for the costs of those redundancies. I asked the Chief Secretary what the figure was for the rest of Whitehall. He will know what that figure is, because he will have signed it off. Twice I asked him for that figure, and twice he avoided the question. It does him no credit if, knowing what that figure is, he comes to this House for a debate on the comprehensive spending review but avoids the question of the costs to the public purse of the redundancies that will be directly caused by the statement made by the Chancellor last week. He knows that figure and he should stand up now and give it to the House. Silence is sometimes far more revealing than an answer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Eagle]

The hon. Lady’s intervention was extremely helpful. Of course I have. We have all done a great deal of work on social security reform, and I hope she will be the first to acknowledge some of the progress we made, particularly in helping lone parents into work. Tax credits and all the support we gave on child care were among the measures that were crucial in ensuring that we managed to increase significantly the number of lone parents in work when we were in office. I hope she will be the first to recognise our success in those areas. She should take a close look at the increasing rates of marginal tax that came about because of some of the changes, particularly for lone parents, and the savings made in tax credits, and she should also have a word with her party’s Front-Bench team about their priorities for cuts, given that they are taking away benefits that particularly help women go out to work.

In softening up the country for this age of austerity, Ministers have been anxious to establish some myths, the first of which is that the deficit was a Labour spending choice. We heard a lot of that today from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. The second myth is that the cuts announced are unavoidable. We need to start with some facts. When the credit crunch struck in 2008, Britain had the second-lowest debt in the G7. We had low interest rates, low inflation and low unemployment. There is nothing reckless about that. Now, however, the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats are trying to rewrite history.

[Matthew Hancock]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ms Eagle]

No.

Public spending did not cause this deficit—the global financial crisis caused it. A large deficit is what we get when the largest financial crisis since the war hits. When companies’ profits are hit, tax revenues fall.

[Matthew Hancock]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ms Eagle]

I said no.

When families have to work shorter hours, they pay less tax. We took a conscious decision to spend money to keep people in their jobs and homes, and I am proud that we did that. As a result of our action, unemployment was half what it had been in previous recessions and repossession levels were also half what they were in the Tory recession of the 1990s. Some of this help has been cut away in the CSR and, as a result, it is more likely that more people will lose their homes, as unemployment and the cuts begin to bite.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Eagle]

There we see it—the old boys’ network writ large. They stick together, don’t they?

[Matthew Hancock]

rose—

[Ms Eagle]

Go on then.

[Hon. Members]

Hooray!

[Matthew Hancock]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for plucking up the courage to give way. She said that Britain went into the crisis with the second lowest deficit in the world, but she has now revised that to point out that, actually, it was the second lowest debt in the world. Does not the fact that she and her colleagues muddle up the debt and the deficit show just why we are in this mess?

[Ms Eagle]

Whatever happened to old-fashioned courtesy? The hon. Gentleman should ask himself why I do not want to give way to him when he is so generous and lovely to me when I do.

Money spent on infrastructure investment kept the construction sector going. As we saw from the GDP figures on Wednesday, that is still having a positive effect. The deficit was unavoidable. It was vital to support people and businesses through tough times, but let us be clear about Labour’s spending before the crisis hit. Far from being too high, it was, as the Prime Minister said—I am quoting him directly—“really quite tough”, while the Chancellor was urging us to spend more.

The second myth is that the scale of the cuts is unavoidable. As my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor has pointed out, Government propaganda has got it precisely the wrong way round. The fact is that the deficit was unavoidable; it is the June Budget and the Chancellor’s spending review that are a political choice. They are not only avoidable, they are downright dangerous. That is why there was no mention of these supposedly unavoidable cuts in the manifestos of either of the parties now in government when they went to the country. That is why they have no mandate for the cuts policy that they have embarked on since the general election.

Since the election, we have seen the contortions of the Deputy Prime Minister, along with his accomplice in what we now have to call the “quad”, to justify his volte-face. First he told us that he took a call from the Governor of the Bank of England as he stepped into the ministerial Jag, but the Governor begged to differ. Then the Deputy Prime Minister said that Britain was about to become Greece. That is about as close to a myth as you can get, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Government have made their choice, and we on the Opposition Benches will hold them responsible for the social and economic consequences of those choices.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between Angela Eagle and Matt Hancock

Thursday 24th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Ms Eagle]

The hon. Gentleman has not been here all day, so I will not give way to him.

In the pre-Budget report, Sir Alan Budd was obliged to point out that my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor was being too pessimistic—those who know him are not always surprised by that—and that on almost every measure, the public finances are in better, not worse, shape than we expected at the time of the March Budget. Unemployment, Sir Alan revealed, would be 200,000 lower than expected, and tax revenues would be much stronger than forecast. Thus the borrowing forecast was £8.4 billion lower this year than predicted in March, and £22 billion lower by 2014-15.

[Matthew Hancock]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ms Eagle]

No.

No amount—[Interruption.] Conservative Members have had all day to peddle their view of what is happening to the economy. I am now responding to that, and they have to sit and listen whether they like it or not.

No amount of Orwellian double-speak emanating from No. 10 or No. 11 can cover up the basic fact that things are not worse as far as the deficit is concerned, but better. Shorn of the prearranged excuse for ratcheting up the pain levels in his austerity Budget, the Chancellor has been exposed as a small-state ideologue and a true child of the 1980s. He has imposed the most brutal cuts in public spending that the country has ever experienced in peacetime for reasons of dogmatic delusion, not economic necessity. The Tories are doing this not because they have to, but because they want to. They have made a political choice, not an economic choice, and we will see the results of their return to their Thatcherite roots.

There is no electoral mandate for the economically dubious dance with dogma that is at the Budget’s intellectual core. The majority of the electorate voted for parties that did not want to make immediate cuts at a time when the recovery was not locked in and our major EU trading partners were seeing their upturns falter. Those who voted Lib Dem did not expect their chosen party to experience a wholesale conversion to Tory fiscal hawkery after a quick cup of tea with the Governor of the Bank of England. They feel betrayed—and they have been.

Make no mistake: this is a very Tory Budget. It contains the largest spending cuts in our peacetime history, focused on the neediest areas of the country. It brings about a huge rise in the most regressive tax available, which will hit the poorest hardest. The decision to attempt to eliminate an 8% structural deficit in five years, and the choice of a ratio of 77% spending cuts to 23% tax rises, are more brutal than Mrs Thatcher ever dreamed of. The Chancellor has paraded Canada and Sweden as examples to follow, but as Will Hutton recently pointed out, the plans for fiscal consolidation in the Budget are three times tougher than those achieved in Sweden and twice as tough as the Canadian example. Sweden took 15 years to achieve 20% cuts in some departmental spending, but this Tory-led Government want to cut 25% in five years.

The lesson from Japan is that it is positively dangerous to attempt radical fiscal consolidation when the private sector is deleveraging, so why are the Government prepared to risk making the same mistake? Because of its error, Japan experienced a lost decade of growth and achieved the opposite of its intentions: not a shrinking deficit, but an increasing one. The Budget contains no strategy for growth beyond the usual tired old Tory refrain that the private sector will fill the gap. That is not a growth strategy, but a statement of blind economic faith that might or might not be fulfilled.

It has taken a mere two days for the pitifully thin Lib Dem veneer attached to the Budget to flake off completely. The Lib Dem leader promised us “progressive cuts”, but the devastating analysis of the IFS has put paid to that absurd and oxymoronic phrase. When we take out Labour’s remaining Budget changes, this Budget is deeply regressive, and it gets more regressive as the years go on and the huge cuts in welfare support and tax credits bite. It is now clear what the Deputy Prime Minister means by progressive cuts: he will cut this year, cut more next year, and cut even more the year after that. His phrase is true, when it is taken literally.

A Budget that targets £6 billion of cuts on the most vulnerable, including pensioners, by delinking benefit uprating from the retail prices index, yet hits banks with only a £2 billion levy that is being given back through corporation tax, is not sharing the pain. A huge hike in VAT that hits the poorest hardest is not sharing the pain. A deliberate decision to destroy large swathes of social support, and cutting support for the jobless and home owners when they are most under pressure, is not sharing the pain. The choices in the Budget make it abundantly clear that we are not all in this together.

Today’s Financial Times carries an article that states:

“Ministers warn that they may have to tear up some untargeted welfare promises—such as the £4bn spent on subsidising bus travel, winter fuel and television licences for older people…One minister said that such a move was ‘almost certain’”.

The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark said today that he would not allow that to happen. Well, if he wants to stop that betrayal, he has to table those amendments and carry his Lib Dem colleagues through the Lobby with us to stop this Conservative-led Budget doing even more damage. We look forward to seeing him in there with us.