National Minimum Wage

Debate between Andy Sawford and Chuka Umunna

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Umunna]

I thank my hon. Friend; that is interesting and I look forward to hearing his comments on who took what position at that time.

Yesterday, I revisited an interview with the great Sir Ian McCartney, a former Member of this House, who was the Minister at the Department of Trade and Industry and pushed the National Minimum Wage Bill through the House. He said that he would have “died in the ditch” to ensure that we got it through, and—my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) will remember this—we had a record sitting of the House to get the national minimum wage through in the face of resistance from Conservative Members.

I distinctly remember Sir Ian McCartney at a press conference with the Westminster lobby, explaining why we were doing what we were doing. He was a former kitchen worker and earned poverty wages. I remember seeing the news report of him weeping at that press conference, explaining how he was paid something like 1p or 2p per potato that he put in a bag in that kitchen, and asking the lobbying journalists, “How can you defend that in our country in this day and age?”

As I said, Labour Members are rightly proud of the national minimum wage, and we make no apologies for reminding people of the resistance that we met when we introduced it, and of the difference that a Labour Government make to people’s lives.

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the stark choice around fairness that people faced in this country all those years ago in 1997, and the different positions that the Labour and Conservative parties took on the minimum wage. Does he agree that today that choice is perhaps best symbolised by the support of Conservative Members for the bedroom tax, which makes me think that they have learned nothing from their opposition to the minimum wage?

[Mr Umunna]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend, and in my constituency I have seen the stress, upset and angst caused by the bedroom tax, causing people to have to leave an area in which many of them have grown up and love so much. My hon. Friend is right: the bedroom tax shows the instincts of our different parties.

Although we are, of course, proud to have established the national minimum wage, which helped to end exploitation and extreme low pay, it did not end low pay per se. Under this Government working people have experienced their wages dropping by an average of more than £1,600 a year. The 1 October rise in the minimum wage is the first real-terms increase during this Parliament, and it is still 4.1% below its 2008 peak and just 2p above its equivalent value in 2005. Therefore, if we are elected next year, our goal will be to halve the number of people on low pay in our country. To achieve that, we need the minimum wage to evolve to address the broader problem of low pay, which is the purpose of the motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Umunna]

Well, that is it, and that is precisely why we will introduce a far tougher package than the sole measure we have seen on zero-hours contracts from the Government, which is basically just a do-away with exclusivity on those contracts. That is simply insufficient given the story that my hon. Friend has just told—and I would be very interested to know who the employer was.

The third point I want to make on the changes we need is that, when the minimum wage was introduced, the hope was that it would have a ripple-effect causing wages to rise up the income scale, but that has not turned out to be the case. Frankly, it is becoming the going rate in some sectors, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) alluded to. This explains why 1.2 million employees currently just earn the legal minimum. That is up from just over 600,000 in April 1999, so we have seen a considerable increase in the number of people on the minimum. Therefore, in its beefed up role, we will ask the LPC to advise on what sectors of the economy could afford to pay more than the minimum wage and how that could be achieved.

Finally, enforcement has been mentioned, and much more needs to be done on that, as the hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) said. There has in some respects been a systematic failure in the way the minimum wage has been policed. To address that, we will give local authorities, working alongside Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, powers to enforce the law, and we will increase the fines tenfold for rogue companies that do not meet their obligations. In this way, we will evolve the national minimum wage so that it moves beyond the narrow task of setting a minimum wage to avoid extreme low pay to a broader mission to reduce low pay in Britain. As far as the Minister’s party is concerned, I discern no desire to move beyond the status quo and the current arrangements.

[Andy Sawford]

On my hon. Friend’s point about where the Government stand, I had an assurance from the Prime Minister in February that they would name and shame those employers who had been found out and fined for not paying the minimum wage in my constituency. They still have not done that. Does that not show there is no real commitment on this from the Conservative party?

[Mr Umunna]

My hon. Friend’s remarks illustrate a point I have been making.

The Minister has said he would like to see the minimum wage strengthened, but his party has set out no plans whatsoever on how it will make that happen. It is all very well picking holes in, and raising issues with, the suggestions we have put forward, but I do not see any coming from Government Members. All we have seen—as the Minister’s boss the Secretary of State, who I know is away in India, said in June—is the Chancellor, in talking about the minimum wage increasing to £7 earlier this year, simply explaining the arithmetic of what would happen if a real minimum wage were restored; commentary from the Chancellor, but no action.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Andy Sawford and Chuka Umunna

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Umunna]

With the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, my understanding is that the survey was conducted among the very businesses to which he refers. As far as I am aware, the Government have not claimed that it is specifically for small businesses. I am happy to be disabused if I have got that wrong.

Thirdly, the proposal could do immense damage to workplace relations and to the standing of business more generally. I say that from a common sense point of view and as an employment lawyer. What on earth are employees to think if suddenly, out of nowhere, their employer says, “Will you give up all your fundamental rights in this workplace if I give you some shares?” What signal will that send to the employee? [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) says from a sedentary position that it is voluntary, but what does that say about one’s relationship with an employer if they are talking about taking away fundamental rights at work? As Justin King, CEO of Sainsbury’s and until recently a member of the Prime Minister’s business advisory group, said, what will the population at large think of businesses that want to trade employment rights for money?

Fourthly, and this applies more generally to the Government’s moves to destroy the unfair dismissal regime, removing people’s rights to claim unfair dismissal, or a redundancy payment for which compensation is capped will simply increase the likelihood of employers facing spurious discrimination claims brought against them, for which compensation is unlimited. That was a point made by Baroness Brinton in the other place.

If an employee is to be offered this special type of employment status, it is important that they should be able to access proper advice on it, particularly in this climate when jobs are few and far between. That point was made by the noble and learned Lord Pannick, who proposed the amendment. The Government have refused to accept that statutory rights should be lost only if the agreement is in writing and the person concerned has received proper independent legal advice on its consequences. That is how it applies in relation to compromise agreements.

Then there is the issue of the shares themselves and tax. How on earth are these to be valued, particularly given—if the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) is right that the measure is aimed at small companies—that many are unquoted. How will the value of shares be determined without incurring exorbitant fees that would render the whole exercise worthless? According to the Treasury, it will cost the Exchequer £l billion by the end of the forecast period, but the true cost may well be more because, as the Treasury’s December 2012 policy costing document says, it is hard to predict how quickly the increased scope for tax planning will be exploited. That point was picked up by Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, who said that

“just as government ministers are falling over themselves to condemn”

tax avoidance

“that same government is trumpeting a new tax policy that looks like it will foster a whole new avoidance industry.”

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise the issue of tax avoidance. Is there not also an implication for lower paid workers? The Minister has just told us that only the first £2,000 of shares will be exempt from PAYE and national insurance. Does that not mean that workers with, say, £4,000-worth of shares will be hit with a tax bill?

[Mr Umunna]

That is absolutely right.

My final and principal objection to the proposal is this: last November, I put it to the Business Secretary in this House that an employer in his Twickenham constituency would, under these arrangements, be able to make acceptance of job offers conditional on people agreeing to accept employee owner status. He denied that that was the case, yet patently the arrangements allow for it. The risk in the current jobs market of people being pressurised, or feeling under pressure, to take jobs with this type of status will be increased.

I am pleased about the Minister’s concession today. I raised the point with him on Report, but did not get the kind of assurance or concession that he just gave, and it is good that he gave it. Lord Forsyth said he was astonished that the coalition was even thinking of bringing forward a measure under which people could have their right to jobseeker’s allowance withdrawn if they did not accept a job on this basis. Of course, we will need to study the guidance. We have not seen it yet, and the first we heard of the concession was from the Minister just now. Notwithstanding the concession, however, and for all the reasons I have just given, we continue to support Lords amendment 25.