Bus Services Bill [Lords]

Debate between Andy Burnham and Theresa Villiers

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 27th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)]

I assure the House that my contribution on this important Bill will be brief.

The partnership provisions in the Bill are welcome and important. Partnership working between local authorities and private sector bus companies has delivered a whole range of improvements for passengers in many parts of the country. The goal of the Government here should be to focus on encouraging that kind of co-operation, whereby the business acumen and expertise of the private sector can work alongside the local understanding and commitment of local authorities, so those provisions in the Bill are welcome. During the passage of the Bill, hon. Members have cited a number of positive examples of different parts of the country, such as Brighton, where partnerships between private sector operators and local authorities have had a transformative and positive effect on services.

I regret that I was not able to be here for the debate on the amendments that I and my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Sir Henry Bellingham) tabled, but I very much welcome the assurances given by the Minister on a number of them and the recognition of the importance of a number of the principles contained in them. In particular, I urge him to take seriously the objectives of amendments 14 and 15, and I hope the guidance issued will clearly set out the fact that franchising schemes should be a last resort and will be approved only if partnership working will not deliver the benefits that are sought for passengers.

I warmly welcome the Secretary of State’s support for amendment 2. Ensuring that those who audit a franchise assessment are properly independent significantly strengthens the Bill. It would be unfortunate if those checking out a franchise assessment were not independent of the local authorities essentially making the decisions on franchising authorities.

To return to a theme I talked about at some length on Second Reading, I hope the Government will do everything they can to facilitate certainty in the private sector bus operators market, because that certainty is the key to investment in new fleet, better ticketing measures and a range of passenger improvements. Anything that leads to uncertainty could jeopardise investment, which would have a negative effect on passengers. I particularly have in mind the importance of delivering smarter ticketing, which is crucial not only for passengers’ convenience but in persuading them that the bus can more often be an attractive and viable alternative to the car.

There is a certain irony in the fact that it is a Conservative Government who are taking through this Bill, which, as the House is aware, partially rolls back one of the major privatisations of the Thatcher era. There are mixed views on the role of private sector bus operators in delivering transport services, but I believe they have brought significant benefits for passengers, and I hope nothing in the Bill is allowed to jeopardise the reliance on the expertise and investment that the private sector has brought to bus operations over the years.

[Andy Burnham]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am afraid I am about to conclude, but the right hon. Gentleman will get his chance very soon.

I close by once again thanking the Minister for his assurances that he takes seriously the points raised in the amendments and for commending partnership working between the private sector and local authorities, which is one of the best ways to deliver improvements for passengers.

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[Andy Burnham]

That is absolutely the point. If we construct a franchise process that really puts the public interest first, and we then ask the private sector to meet that public interest, that will be a much better system; indeed, it is the system the right hon. Lady’s constituents benefit from in London. The question I was going to ask her was, why, if she thinks that is okay for her constituents, is she seeking to deny it to ours? That is not an acceptable position for her to take.

[Mrs Villiers]

Obviously, I do not want to go back over the whole debate we had on this, but there is a range of ways in which the bus sector is very different in London, not least the fact that Londoners pay millions of pounds in congestion charges, which support the bus network. That is one of the major reasons why bus services in London are different from those in the rest of the country; it is not necessarily the regulatory structure that makes the difference.

[Andy Burnham]

That is, if I am honest, the kind of London-centric argument that gets this House a bad name—“London’s different and therefore it needs different rules and all the extra attention.” If the system works in London, why can it not work in a city region like the west midlands, Merseyside or, indeed, Greater Manchester? If the principles are good ones that deliver a good bus service for people here, then surely they should be extended to the other major cities of our country, and those decisions should be devolved.

If I am to be in a position to use the powers in this Bill, I would use them to bring fares down. Fares are much more expensive in Greater Manchester than they are in London, for instance. I would use them to increase and improve disability access, including audio-visual provision. I would use them to pave the way for an integrated ticketing system. We are currently denied an Oyster-style system. Because of the free-for-all, all the operators use different ticketing systems and cannot provide an integrated system. I would use the powers to give every community a decent, reliable service. I would use them to introduce a free bus pass for all 16 to 18-year-olds.

Bus Services Bill [Lords]

Debate between Andy Burnham and Theresa Villiers

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 1st March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I have not looked at the Jersey example, but my anxiety is that rolling back the clock, essentially, and renationalising and re-regulating the bus network could ultimately mean that we lose the investment we have received from the private sector into bus services over the last decades. My key worry here is that the effect of the provisions introduced by clause 4 would be to enable local authorities, who perhaps 30 years ago sold their bus operations at a commercial price, now effectively to confiscate those self-same businesses.

The inevitable impact of this clause is that companies large and small, who might have spent many years and a great deal of money, energy, effort and innovation building up their business, might be barred from operating in the event that they lose the franchise contest. They could see their operations in a particular town or city disappear overnight, leaving them with buses, staff, depots and equipment that they cannot use.

I am particularly worried about the impact on smaller bus operators, who provide important services in many parts of the country. Those with a successful business serving a relatively small area and small range of routes might find it very difficult to tender for a big local authority contract. They might also find the tender process for running services to be complex and expensive, and require costly professional advice. If the process is anything like rail franchising, complexity can be truly daunting.

[Andy Burnham]

I think that people would struggle to agree with the London-centric point that the right hon. Lady was making a moment ago, when she suggested that London was somehow completely different from the rest of the country. My constituents would not accept that. Nor would they accept the point about the poor companies that she is talking about. She is making an argument for them rather than for the travelling public. Does she not accept that, for the past 30 years, bus companies have made considerable, and in some cases excessive, profits at the same time as receiving a public subsidy?

[Mrs Villiers]

My goal is to improve services for passengers, and I believe that private sector investment in our bus networks has had a positive impact on passengers. I do not believe that reversing that would produce better outcomes for passengers. One has only to look back at the pre-1986 position to see that the ridership on buses before that date had plummeted. It is not the case that there was a golden era for bus services before 1986.

The trouble is that if we create a system in which we discourage private sector investment in the bus network, we will create uncertainty in the bus industry. Discouraging such investment will have a negative impact on passengers. That is what I am worried about.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

There seems to be an assumption that if the London model of regulation were to be applied everywhere else, it would suddenly deliver London standards of bus services, but a causal link between the two has not been established. A whole range of factors in London contributes to the high levels of ridership and the success of the bus network. Simply reproducing that regulatory system elsewhere would not deliver the same end result, not least because Londoners pay several million pounds in congestion charges every year that are recycled into bus services. That larger level of subsidy makes a difference to the quality of the services.

[Andy Burnham]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Mrs Villiers]

No, I will not give way.

In my previous role as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, I was contacted by Wrightbus of Ballymena. The company was concerned about the chilling effect that even the proposals leading to the Bill were having on orders for new buses from operators in England. Wrightbus is a hugely successful company that exports buses to many places around the world, as far afield as China. It delivers the highest quality engineering and provides training and opportunities for hundreds of young people. It is a great asset to Northern Ireland and to the UK as a whole. Its concerns demonstrate that the re-regulation of bus services outside London is not a step to be undertaken lightly. It is not a cost-free option. If we get this wrong, it will be the passenger who suffers. I therefore appeal to the Minister to table amendments that would remove clause 4. At the very least, it is important to amend the Bill to reverse the changes made in the other place, which extend franchising powers beyond mayoral combined authorities and which would allow all local authorities to set up their own bus companies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister shakes his head, but I want to see more reassurance than that. If he wants to intervene and say more about it now, he is more than welcome to do so. We cannot have such obstacles placed in our way that may actually limit our ability to use the welcome powers in the Bill.

I see that the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers) has retaken her seat, and I do not want to finish without making some reference to her speech. Frankly, I did find it quite difficult to listen to at times. She said that it was right for London to have the powers it gained by being exempted from the original deregulation measures because London is so different. I will tell her one way in which London is different: for every £1 in transport investment that we receive in the whole of the north of England, London gets £6. That inequality has existed for many decades. Consequently, people in London have several public transport options. They can use high-quality commuter trains, the tube network, the docklands light railway, regulated buses, and the bike scheme and dedicated cycle lanes. My constituents have no such choice. They are stuck with using the bus if they do not have a car. That is the difference. It is so wrong of the right hon. Lady to say that what is acceptable for her constituents is not right for Opposition Members’ constituents, who are stuck in their cars.

[Mrs Villiers]

I am a great supporter of investment in infrastructure in the north of England. It is vital to rebalancing our economy. My point was that re-regulating the bus industry outside London will not solve problems with bus services, but arguably make them worse.

[Andy Burnham]

Instead of deleting the clause that lets us try, why does she not let us be the judge of that? My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton warned of the consequences when he was leader of Manchester City Council when deregulation was introduced. He has been proved right. If Government Members now believe in devolution, let them give us the chance to try. Then the right hon. Lady may be able to come back and say that it has not worked, but I believe that we will make it work. I am confident that we can make it work.