NHS Funding

Debate between Andy Burnham and Chris Skidmore

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

The priorities are all wrong. The Government are spending the money on a reorganisation that none of us wanted in the north-west, and as my hon. Friend says, cancer networks are being cut and are shedding staff. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West revealed this week, they are cutting back on the vital work that they do—and there could be no more vital work. Yet we continue to have a false version of events given to us. Ministers must think we are daft, but we are telling the facts to the country today and people will judge for themselves.

When we put the whole picture together, what we see is a tissue of obfuscation and misrepresentation of the real position on NHS spending. The hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries), who is, sadly, not in the House today, once made some interesting observations about those on the Government Front Bench, but it is not just that they

“don’t know the price of pint of milk”.

The arrogance of which she spoke seems to give them a feeling that they can claim that black is white and expect everyone to believe it. If they say it is so, then it must be so. Well no, actually. The intelligence of the House need not be—

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Has the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) informed the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) that he would be making comments about her in the debate today?

Regional Pay (NHS)

Debate between Andy Burnham and Chris Skidmore

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman said that the Labour Government gave too much to nurses and midwives in pay—[Interruption.] He said that we spent too much on pay. He also said that the market rate of pay should apply in his area. I want to ask him a direct question. Does he think that his constituents who work in the NHS are overpaid?

[Chris Skidmore]

No, I think that the right hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting what I said. The fact is that we have got to the point—[Interruption.] Nurses, doctors and health care professionals should be paid according to their skills. They should be paid according to what the trusts can afford. The problem we have is that, with an ageing population—

[Andy Burnham]

So they should be paid less?

[Chris Skidmore]

No, they should not be paid less. The right hon. Gentleman should stop splitting hairs. If we want a health care service that is viable for the future, where will the money come from? Perhaps he can answer that. What would he do to be able pay for the future of the NHS, given the demographic challenge we face?

[Andy Burnham]

If the hon. Gentleman gets rid of national pay in the south-west, does he think that the trusts in the consortium, or cartel, should receive a national tariff that factors in a national rate of pay, or should they be paid less for the work they do?

[Chris Skidmore]

What I find so frustrating about this debate is that the right hon. Gentleman has thrown his principles out of the window. He once defended flexibility for foundation trusts, but he now no longer trusts professionals in the way he really should.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Andy Burnham and Chris Skidmore

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House notes the e-petition signed by 170,000 people calling on the Government to drop the Health and Social Care Bill; and declines to support the Bill in its current form.

I do so on behalf of the 170,000 people who have signed the e-petition calling on the Government to drop the Health and Social Care Bill.

The petition was initiated by Dr Kailash Chand, a distinguished general practitioner in the north-west of many years’ standing, and I pay tribute to him today. He has united patients who depend on the NHS and professionals who have devoted their lives to it in this simple but sincere call on the Government: “Drop the Bill”. Today, their voice will be heard in this House, as it is entitled to be. We will not let them be silenced, even though attempts were made to stop this debate taking place.

That takes us—

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andy Burnham]

No. I have been listening to the strictures from the Chair, and I want to get into my speech so that Back-Bench colleagues have a chance to contribute.

That takes us straight to the heart of the predicament in which we find ourselves. There is huge concern in the country about the Bill, but the Government and Parliament—

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Skidmore]

No, I will not. The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) did not give way to me, I am afraid, so I am not feeling too charitable.

Despite the coalition Government’s added investment of £12.5 billion over the course of this Parliament, demand will only rise further, with 1.6 million people turning 65 in the course of this Parliament and many living into their 80s and beyond. The number of 85-year-olds will double by 2030. The NHS is facing a perfect storm—an ageing population combined with a rise in chronic conditions, including an increase in diabetes, which will take up as much as 25% of the health budget. That is why we are reforming the NHS. Just as this Government are committed to dealing with the deficit so that future generations will not be burdened with debt racked up yesterday, we must be committed to reforming the NHS so that future generations can enjoy an NHS that is free at the point of delivery regardless of the ability to pay. I am sure that that is what everyone in this House is committed to.

By placing GPs rather than management in control of patient treatment, we will not only drive up standards of care, allowing patients access to more treatments under any the qualified provider scheme, but ensure that recurrent cost savings are made to be reinvested in the NHS to cope with the rising demand. Above all, this is an evolutionary measure. My right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) touched on the Blairite doctrine. It was a pleasure that we had Professor Julian Le Grand come to the Health Committee, where he said that if Tony Blair were still Prime Minister and he were advising him, he would have urged him to undertake this measure. It is great to see the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband) in his seat. It would have been fascinating to see what would have happened if he had become leader of the Labour party. I am sure that we would not have seen the rank tribalism that we have seen from those on his Benches today.

[Andy Burnham]

We are supporting the amendment.

[Chris Skidmore]

I am talking about the right hon. Member for South Shields, not the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George).

Professor Julian Le Grand stated on 28 February:

“With respect to the NHS bill, it is important that even those who generally prefer to rely upon their intuitions should avoid muddying the waters by accusing the bill of doing things that it does not, like privatising the NHS; and that all those involved should acknowledge the peer-reviewed evidence demonstrating that its provisions with respect to public competition…are likely to improve patient care.”

More hours have been given to debating this Bill than any other during this Session. Despite Labour’s message, which seems to be opposition for opposition’s sake, we are gradually learning what its policy will be for the next general election. It is interesting that at a rally in Manchester last week, the right hon. Member for Leigh stated, in front of his union faithful,

“And I will make you a promise today—if I am the health secretary after the next general election I will repeal this bill.”

According to the Opposition, this is the greatest reorganisation in history. Yet the Bill will save £4.5 billion straight away and then £1.5 billion recurrently, year on year, thereafter.

NHS (Private Sector)

Debate between Andy Burnham and Chris Skidmore

Monday 16th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

My argument would be that if those decisions are to be made, the people who make them should be accountable to the hon. Gentleman and the House, whereas the Bill that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is introducing proposes to push those things away. There will be an independent commissioning board that GPs and clinical commissioning groups will not be able to overturn; it will make the decisions. That is a completely unacceptable state of affairs.

Before the last election, we proposed a modest loosening of the private patient cap in response to pressure in another place when we were debating the Health Act 2009, but compared with our modest reforms, the Government’s plans are off the scale. Instead of private sector activity at the margins, the Health and Social Care Bill places market forces at the heart of the system. The private sector will not support the NHS, but will replace large chunks of the service in commissioning and provision.

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

I should be interested to learn—as I am sure would the whole House—the right hon. Gentleman’s definition of modest loosening. In the four years between 2006 and 2010, the amount of money going to the private sector rose from £2 billion to about £12.2 billion. Does the right hon. Gentleman simply oppose the 49% cap or will he pledge to reverse it if he returns to government? What exactly would the cap be? Would it be 30% or 12%? Please let us know.

[Andy Burnham]

May I refer the hon. Gentleman to the motion? Its request to the Government is not unreasonable; it asks them “to revise significantly downwards” the cap they have proposed.

National Health Service

Debate between Andy Burnham and Chris Skidmore

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. That was precisely why I said it was irresponsible for the Conservatives to promise increases to the NHS in the way that they did, on a much-reduced public spending envelope. That has led to precisely the consequences that she describes. Indeed, that hidden cut to adult social care has been quantified at £2 billion.

I remember well Conservative party claims before the election about death taxes, but what about the dementia taxes that the Conservatives have loaded on to vulnerable older people up and down this country, who are now paying more out of their own pockets to pay for the care that they desperately need? That is the effect of cutting adult social care and cutting council budgets in that way.

We today the nail the position once and for all. The real position is worse than the one I described because of spiralling inflation, which in effect means even deeper real-terms cuts for the NHS this year and in all the years that follow.

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman mentions that the £2 billion transfer from the NHS social care budget is not ring-fenced, but I am sure he is aware that ring-fencing can have the perverse effect of ensuring that local authorities do not spend existing budgets. Will he clarify his position? Is ring-fencing a good idea or not?

[Andy Burnham]

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. I said that it was irresponsible to pledge the money for the health service in the way that the then Opposition did in the run-up to the election precisely because I realised that more would be needed for adult social care. However, if the NHS is to transfer money to local government for adult social care, we must be certain that it will pay for that and not for weekly bin collections or for whatever else he thinks is more important than supporting older, vulnerable people with the costs of care. He makes my point that that money should have been ring-fenced, so that adult social care could have been protected.

[Chris Skidmore]

indicated assent.

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman nods, but I am afraid that that was not the Secretary of State’s policy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

I shall give way in a moment.

If we thought that the Conservative party’s promises on funding were bad enough, the sheer audacity of its claims on hospital closures is breathtaking. Before the last election, the right hon. Gentleman toured the country promising the earth to every Conservative candidate he met. I recall seeing his commitments—I have them here—pile up in the Ashcroft-funded glossy leaflets that landed on my desk in the Department of Health. He said that he would reopen the accident and emergency department in Burnley; he said that he would save and A and E in Hartlepool, but, scandalously, only if the town elected a Conservative MP; and I well remember the day he visited his hon. Friend—although, after this week, I doubt that the Government Front Bench team still consider him a friend—the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and promised the people of Bury in the leaflets I have here:

“Vote Conservative and if there is a Conservative government the maternity department will be kept open.”

It could not be clearer. However, the maternity department at Fairfield hospital is scheduled to close next March. It is disgraceful. However, the Prime Minister’s most shameful politicking came in north London. I lost count of the number of times he promised to save the A and E department at Chase Farm hospital.

[Chris Skidmore]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman to name my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) without telling him?

[Mr Speaker]

Yes, it is.