Diocesan Stipends Funds (Amendment) Measure

Debate between Andrew Selous and Adam Afriyie

Tuesday 13th June 2023 General Committees

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the Diocesan Stipends Funds (Amendment) Measure (HC 1413).

It is a pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I hope that you will permit a very brief piece of historical context setting on the Measure before us today. In medieval times, clergy were paid mainly from income from land owned by the Church, known as glebe land, from the Latin gleba, meaning soil. The amount of land varied from parish to parish and from 1571 onwards, the amount of land a parish owned was recorded in a glebe terrier. With the industrial revolution and the growth of cities, wealthy industrialists were often willing to give significant amounts of money to support the local church, often helping to build and endow the church in question, such as, for example, St Mattias church in Stocksbridge, which opened in 1890 thanks to the generosity of Samuel Fox, the founder of the local Stocksbridge works.

To come forward a bit, the Endowments and Glebe Measure 1976 transferred glebe land from the parishes to diocesan boards of finance in exchange for the payment of a standard stipend to each member of clergy in the diocese. That left a very unequal distribution of wealth, with the Oxford diocese, for example, having £166 million in its diocesan stipends funds capital account, and Lincoln having £100 million and the highest assets per capita of any diocese. At the other end of the scale, Liverpool, for example, had only £1.6 million in its diocesan stipends funds capital account. Those are all figures for the end of 2019.

Regardless of their wealth, each of the 42 dioceses in the Church of England is required, under the Diocesan Stipends Funds Measure 1953, to maintain two accounts. The first is a capital account that holds the glebe land, legacies and other assets. The second is an income account that holds the proceeds from the capital account. The funds in the income account may be used only for specified statutory purposes, the principal of which is the paying of parish clergy stipends. Today’s amending Measure is concerned with the income account only.

The existing legislative position means that the funds in the income account can be used only within the diocese. In 2020, the Church began to looks at ways to enable a richer diocese to support a poor diocese by way of donating funds directly for the payment of clergy stipends. The recommendation of the Church’s Mutuality in Finances Group was to bring a simple Measure for Synod’s consideration that would remove the geographic restriction on the use of the funds so as to enable one diocese to donate to another. This brief Measure does that by amending the 1953 stipends funds Measure by inserting a new single section 5B.

Subsection (1) of the new section provides that where a diocesan board of finance is satisfied that funds that sit in its stipends income account do not need to be used for another statutory purpose it may transfer those funds out of the diocese. Subsection (2) provides that when a transfer takes place, it may only be directly to the stipends income account of another Church of England diocese or to the Archbishops’ Council or another Church charity.

[Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend —and the Minister, I guess, at the moment—for giving way. I have one quick question. When the Measure says that these stipends might be transferred to other charities or organisations, do they have to be within the remit of the Church of England or could the money be given to Oxfam?

[Andrew Selous]

I am the Second Church Estates Commissioner rather than the Minister, so I am speaking on behalf of the Church of England rather than the Government, to clarify my hon. Friend’s first point. The answer to his second question is that the funds can go only to another diocese or another part of the Church of England specifically for parish clergy—not for central funds, not for diocesan administration, but entirely for the benefit of clergy in another diocese.

As I was saying, subsection (3) requires that where the Archbishops’ Council or another charity receives such funds, they must decide which diocese or dioceses to transfer the funds to, and then do so directly to the stipends income account of that diocese. It is important to emphasise that this power is entirely permissive; there will be no obligation on a diocese to use it. That said, the Church is confident that those dioceses that are able to be generous will be so.

The Measure has received overwhelming favour in the General Synod, and the Ecclesiastical Committee, which is composed of Members of both Houses, including myself and the right hon. Member for Exeter, considered the matter in its sitting on 25 April, and we found the Measure to be expedient. I hope it will also find favour with this Committee.

To reiterate the point I made to my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor, we are talking only about money for the payment of clergy stipends, meeting small expenses in relation to the maintenance of clergy houses, paying national insurance contributions for clergy, and paying some small expenses of a parish in vacancy. On transparency and accountability, each diocese has a diocesan synod made up of elected clergy and laity in the diocese, who will have to consider and give their approval of these measures. There is therefore democratic, if you like, scrutiny, diocese by diocese, of what is proposed. We estimate that dioceses in the top quartile will help those in the lower quartile, perhaps with the Archbishops’ Council acting as a sort of broker to enable that to happen.

General Synod (Remote Meetings) (Temporary Standing Orders) Measure

Debate between Andrew Selous and Adam Afriyie

Monday 19th October 2020 General Committees

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the General Synod (Remote Meetings) (Temporary Standing Orders) Measure (HC 879).

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Elliott. I reassure Members that we should be able to dispose of this matter reasonably speedily. The Measure will enable the General Synod, which is the legislative body for the Church of England, to meet and conduct its business remotely. The current coronavirus restrictions mean that it is not practically possible for the Synod to meet in the usual way with 500 people from across England gathering in the same place, either over the road in Church House here in London, or in York. In this Parliament, as we are all aware, we have been able to make provision for remote participation in sittings using the orders of the House. However, as the General Synod was created by statute law, it does not have the same freedom, and legislation is required to enable it to meet remotely.

Members may recall that during proceedings on the Coronavirus Bill earlier this year, similar provision was made for local authority meetings. The General Synod is in the same position as those local authorities. Arrangements made under the Measure could allow for all the Synod’s members to participate remotely, but it would also be possible for the Synod to adopt a hybrid approach with some members in the chamber and some joining online. We are, of course, familiar with those arrangements, which we are using here in this Parliament. The precise arrangements that are adopted will need to take account of the relevant regulations and Government guidance as they develop over the coming months.

There is some urgency to this legislation, because the General Synod needs to conduct certain business before the end of the year, including legislation that will give effect to the recommendations of a 2019 report from the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse. There are also statutory deadlines that need to be complied with, including approval of the Church of England’s national budget for 2021. If the Measure is approved, the General Synod will meet remotely next month to deal with that other significant business.

Because of the practical issues arising from coronavirus restrictions, as I have mentioned, the Synod met in September to pass this Measure with only a quorum of members attending. Other members who were entitled to attend refrained from exercising their right to come. The Measure was passed by the Synod with no votes against in any of the three Houses—the House of Bishops, the House of Clergy and the House of Laity—and here in Parliament the Ecclesiastical Committee considered the Measure on 6 October and reported that it considered the Measure to be expedient. I hope that we will do similarly today.

[Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)]

I thought I would ask this question early, so that my hon. Friend has time to reflect on it if he needs to. Clause 1(5) describes what happens if an office referred to in subsection (2) is vacant. Is that merely an administrative exercise that does not bestow further powers or change how the Synod operates? It seems to me to be a very precise provision, rather than something that simply concerns the ability to have a virtual meeting.

[Andrew Selous]

I reassure my hon. Friend that this Measure is purely about enabling the Synod to conduct its business in a hybrid manner so that 500 people do not have to cram into a relatively small room in Church House, which would not be covid secure. This Measure has no impact on doctrine or on any particular Measure of the Church; it is purely about how the Church conducts its business. Elections for bishops and archbishops will take place in the usual way, and none of those things will be changed by the Measure.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Selous and Adam Afriyie

Thursday 9th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)]

5. What recent progress his Department has made on the roll-out of superfast broadband; and if he will make a statement.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

6. What steps he is taking to extend broadband coverage.