Middle East and North Africa

Debate between Andrew Percy and Louise Ellman

Thursday 17th July 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests about a visit to Israel and the Palestinian territories.

I thank the right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) for securing this important, timely debate. In his contribution he displayed both his expertise on the whole area and his sensitivity to the involvement and suffering of so many different parties in that region. I want to focus my comments on the Israeli-Palestinian issue and, in particular, the horrifying events under way in Gaza, but what happens in Israel and the Palestinian territories is of course much affected by what happens in a turbulent neighbourhood. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the hundreds of thousands of people killed in Syria and the millions of people there who have been displaced. That ongoing issue is causing widespread concern.

I start by saying that all civilian deaths are tragic. A civilian death on any side of a dispute is equal to that on the other. It is all tragic and it should all be avoided. It is a great cause for concern that John Kerry’s initiative has, up to now, not succeeded. The overall situation will only be resolved by a negotiated agreement on setting up a Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel. That means agreement on borders based on the 1967 boundaries, on how to share Jerusalem and on dealing with refugee issues on both sides. As long as that is not secured, there will be disputes.

The current situation in Gaza is intolerable. The Israelis withdrew all their 8,000 settlers and soldiers in 2005. Some were withdrawn forcibly by the Israeli army. There followed a short time when Israel and the Palestinian Authority had an agreement. For the very first time, Gaza was ruled by Palestinians, but that was short-lived. Hamas came to power, and it has to be recognised for what it is: a terrorist organisation. It is recognised to be so by, among others, the USA, Jordan, the European Union and Japan. Its 1988 charter—in other words, a recent, modern charter—contains elements that are blood-curdling. It talks about Jews running the worldwide media and Jews being responsible for such things as the French revolution and the Russian revolution. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that will not accept the existence of Israel. It is not interested in boundaries. It finds the concept of the majority Jewish state of Israel as anathema in that region, and that has to be remembered.

What is happening now is that Hamas decided to launch an attack, targeted on Israeli civilians. At the last count, although it may well be an underestimate, some 1,350 rockets have been launched, targeted on 70% of Israeli civilians.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is making an excellent speech. Will she confirm the size and scale of the rockets? Some who seek to defend the action from Gaza refer to the rockets as little more than fireworks, but they are a new type of rocket from Hamas with a payload of 300 lb and a range of 100 miles or more. That should not be forgotten.

[Mrs Ellman]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. Those rockets are aimed at and landing on places such as Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa. Munir al-Masri, a senior Hamas spokesperson, stated only two days ago, on 15 July:

“Hamas will continue hitting Israel until the last Zionist leaves the whole of Palestine, from the sea to the river.”

It is pretty clear what this is all about.

The situation is intolerable. Neither the Israeli Government nor any other Government could countenance this targeted attack on their citizens, the aim of which is to kill and to destroy. It is interesting to note the comment made by Gershon Baskin, who is renowned for his efforts working with Palestinians and Israelis to seek peace. Indeed, he was a pivotal figure in the release of Gilad Shalit. He spoke only last week of his absolute despair. He said that he called on the Hamas leadership not to intensify its actions. He knows that his message went right to the top, to Khaled Meshaal, the Hamas leader. With absolute despair, he said that the Hamas leader simply said, “Bring it on.” The situation is extremely grave.

A large number of Palestinian civilians have been killed or injured, which is a matter of deep regret. It is a tragedy for them as much as it would be for Israelis to be injured or killed. The responsibility for the deaths and injuries has to lie with those who decided to put their rocket bases, launchers and headquarters in civilian populations—Hamas. Indeed, a senior Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu Zuhri, said only two days ago, on 15 July:

“The fact that people are willing to sacrifice themselves against Israeli weapons in order to protect their homes is a strategy that is proving itself.”

The Israelis feel that they have to stop those deadly rockets being launched, deliberately targeted at Israeli citizens. The Israelis know that they have to go to civilian areas, and they are consciously and as a matter of policy informing the civilians in those areas about what is about to happen and asking them to leave, because they do not wish to have civilian casualties. It is clear from that statement—there are many others—that the Hamas leadership is gloating over the situation and the death of its own citizens. That is absolutely deplorable and should not be countenanced.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy]

It absolutely does. It is appalling that, simply because there have been more deaths on one side, some people conclude that the response has been disproportionate. Hamas chooses to use civilians in such a way because, let us be honest, the more bodies that are photographed, the better it is for Hamas’s PR campaign. That is a terrible situation, but why else would the Ministry of the Interior be telling its citizens to ignore warnings to leave their homes because of an impending strike? What other reason could there be?

[Mrs Ellman]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that his comment about Hamas is verified by the public statement made by Sami Abu Zuhri on 15 July, who said:

“The fact that people are willing to sacrifice themselves against Israeli weapons in order to protect their homes is a strategy that is proving itself”?

[Andrew Percy]

The hon. Lady puts it perfectly. That is a strategy.

I will move on because time is pressing. What would we do in such a situation? If 65% to 75% of our population was in range—