Bus Services Bill [Lords]

Debate between Andrew Jones and Andy Burnham

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 27th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Jones]

Of course I recognise that the pressures on local government finance are quite acute. In fact, I was in charge of my local council’s financial affairs throughout the financial crash in 2008-09, so I am fully aware of that. At the same time, it does not change the requirement to recognise that buses are a local service and should be determined locally.

[Andy Burnham]

Has my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) not just exposed a major contradiction at the heart of the Government’s position? The Minister says that he wants local delivery but, when it comes to cross-border issues, he says that Whitehall knows best. Surely the Government’s position on bus services should be for maximum devolution, including of the budget.

[Andrew Jones]

I am not saying that Whitehall knows best; I am saying that the grant is best delivered to bus operators that are running cross-border services, and then to take it from there. It is not a question of Whitehall knows best. We are not determining the routes that operators should be operating. We are keen to see more support for buses and more routes available, but the way to achieve long-term sustainable bus growth is to have more passengers on the buses.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) mentioned the Paulley case, which took five years to go through our legal system and reached the High Court. Specifically, we will be inviting the Equality and Human Rights Commission to attend the meetings of our working group, on which progress has been made. We seek to have a small working group that will look at the practical implications of the Paulley case. Among the members invited so far is the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee, because we want the voice of disabled groups. We also want the voice of the bus operators, so we have invited the Confederation of Passenger Transport and the Association of Local Bus Company Managers. We also want the voice of passengers, so Transport Focus has been invited. I hope we will see the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which has been invited to attend but not as a formal member. I hope to get things under way with our first meeting next month.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Jones]

I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. We will deal with independence in the guidance, and independence from the decision-making body will be a basic criterion for the auditor.

[Andy Burnham]

I am reassured by what the Minister said this afternoon in rejecting amendment 14 and other related amendments. I ask him to go a little further and commit to the House that the spirit of his remarks today will be carried into the guidance and regulations that will follow the Bill—the consultation on them closed sometime last week. Will he also work closely with Transport for Greater Manchester and other metropolitan transport authorities to ensure that the wording of the regulations and the guidance is consistent with what he has said today and what is in the Bill?

[Andrew Jones]

I can provide the right hon. Gentleman with that assurance. We are not seeking to stand in the way; we want to create a suite of powers for local authorities to make decisions about what is right for their area. In some cases, it will be a franchising model, but that will be at the margins and not what will happen in most parts of the country. However, some parts, such as Greater Manchester, have indicated much interest in that model. It is not one of our objectives to block local authorities from choosing what is right for their area. We want a thriving bus industry, with local authorities working with bus operators to deliver a better network with a better deal for passengers and more passengers on buses. That is our objective with this Bill.

Amendments 4 and 5 make clear the precise requirements that a person has to satisfy to be appointed as an auditor. We are proposing the changes in response to effective representations we have received from a number of Members and following meetings that the Secretary of State and I have had to discuss the practicality of existing provisions with potential auditors. I hope that the amendments will be broadly supported by Members across the House.

The aim of amendments 14 and 15, once again tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk, is to prevent a franchising scheme from proceeding if the passenger benefits it is expected to deliver could be achieved by making a partnership scheme. I sympathise with much of my hon. Friend’s intentions. Indeed, my hon. Friends the Members for North West Norfolk and for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) have done a significant job in speaking up on behalf of bus passengers for a considerable time. I do not want to see franchising pursued for any reason other than passenger benefit, and certainly not for ideological reasons. Passenger benefit is a theme that runs throughout the Bill. We want to see passenger experiences improve.

As I have made clear, however, the Bill already requires a local transport authority to compare making a franchising scheme with one or more other options. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk will be reassured to know that that should be a proper consideration of the options available. Indeed, the draft guidance, on which we recently consulted, states:

“Identifying realistic options should not be a desk exercise… and authorities should engage with bus operators in the area”

to see whether there is “a realistic partnership proposition”. It also states that an

“authority should not dismiss realistic”

alternatives without detailed assessment. The decision-making arrangements for franchising in the Bill are appropriate. Following a consultation on its assessment of the options, which should include bus operators and passenger representatives, an authority that decides to implement franchising must have satisfied itself that franchising is the right option for its area. Importantly, it should have a clear rationale for that decision with passengers at its heart. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk will feel able to withdraw amendments 14 and 15.

The final set of amendments relating to franchising decisions are also from my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk. Amendments 26 and 27 aim to prevent an authority that has developed a franchising proposal, but not progressed it, from making another franchising scheme for a period of five years. Those amendments go against the spirit of devolution. Banning the introduction of a franchising scheme for an arbitrary time period would severely restrict the capacity of an elected mayor, or other franchising authority, to take local situations into account and to act accordingly. It could also undermine the democratic process by preventing a new mayor elected within the five-year period from developing a franchising scheme, even if he or she had had franchising in their manifesto. In practice, if an attempt to franchise were to fail, it is highly unlikely that an authority would seek to make another scheme without devoting a reasonable and significant period of time to learning lessons from the experience. Given that, I hope that my hon. Friend will withdraw the amendments.

I will now move on to consider how much freedom a mayor or local transport authority should have in implementing franchising and partnership schemes. Amendments 6 to 13 and new clause 4, tabled by the hon. Member for Gateshead, seek to limit that freedom in various ways. As I said in Committee, I do not believe that mandating the basis upon which contracts are procured by local transport authorities, or the contents of those contracts, is appropriate, but that is exactly what amendments 6 and 9 propose in relation to the terms and conditions of employees. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the power to achieve the outcome that the amendments seek will already rest with the franchising authority that will be letting the contracts. Employees and their representative groups will have plenty of opportunities to raise such points during the consultation process for the respective schemes. Indeed, it may be appropriate to put the proposals to the mayoral candidates of each of our parties.

I am a little surprised that the amendments have been tabled, because we discussed the practical concerns about them in Committee. For example, it is not clear which terms and conditions would apply where people with different arrangements had previously transferred under TUPE, and the cost of the proposals could also prove sufficient to prevent some authorities from pursuing a franchising scheme.

Bus Services Bill [Lords]

Debate between Andrew Jones and Andy Burnham

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 1st March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

It is interesting, is it not? I read the Second Reading debate and that point was put to the then Secretary of State many times, and, Kuala Lumpur notwithstanding, there was no other evidence to support the major changes. I seem to remember that there are plenty of rickshaws in Kuala Lumpur, but I do not know whether he was including that in his argument.

That Secretary of State and his Government inflicted an ideological experiment on the country without evidence to support it. The facts show that it has been an unmitigated disaster for the travelling public. Today, Members on both sides of the House should at least agree to call time on it and give the various parts of the country the powers they need to correct it.

I want to say something about coverage and quality of services. I know, as my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Jeff Smith) said in his excellent speech—I wish I could have been in that café with him while Eric Cantona played chess; it was a great image—that in parts of his constituency, particularly as it goes into the centre of town, buses are nose to tail. Particularly as they get towards Oxford Road in Manchester, people can see that the bus congestion is just ridiculous. I was with the vice-chancellor of Manchester University last week and she told me that the record number of buses that students had counted along Oxford Road was 34 continuously nose to tail. Of course, that has a terrible effect on traffic congestion in the city centre and it simply does not work.

We have saturation on the lucrative routes, as the bus companies see them, but, as we have heard today, they abandon more isolated areas that do not make a profit for them. The Higherfold estate in my constituency, which is in an isolated area, has constantly had problems with services being unilaterally withdrawn. Then there is an attempt to hold the passenger transport authority to account by saying, “Give us a subsidy or there is no service at all.” That leads to large subsidies for the bus companies that operate in such a way.

A year ago, a Mrs Healy wrote to me to say that the withdrawal of the 12 and 15 services from Leigh meant that her son could no longer get to work in Little Hulton and he had lost his job. No notice was given of the withdrawal of that service. This has a real impact on people’s lives and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East said, because many people in this Chamber do not use buses they might not understand how detrimental poor bus services can be to some people.

My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington mentioned the Arrowfield estate. I recently went there to meet the Arrowfield and Hough End residents group, who told me about the withdrawal of the 84 service, which he mentioned and which, I think, served Withington hospital. The group said that that service had been withdrawn without any formal consultation with the community and the new service that was meant to replace it stopped at 5.30 in the evening, meaning that people could not get home from work. It is not acceptable for the public to be treated in this way.

Then, of course, there is the cost. In London between 1995 and 2016, fares rose in real terms by 36%, but in metropolitan areas, particularly Greater Manchester, fares rose by 60%. As we have heard today, the fare for a single journey can often cost more than £3. Because of the free-for-all, because operators are all running different ticketing systems and because of the chaos, we cannot have an integrated Oyster-style system, so, again, the public lose out.

During a consultation with young people in Bury a few months ago, I asked about the issues facing them, and the cost of transport came up again and again. I asked them whether they travelled on buses and whether they could afford it—this goes back to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East—and the answer was that it was cheaper to get an Uber. If there are four of them, they can get an Uber together and it is cheaper than the bus.

Is it any wonder that the roads of Greater Manchester are becoming more and more congested as every year goes by? As the quality and the coverage of our bus service has gone down and the cost has gone up during the past 30 years, congestion has got worse and worse. That is affecting the air quality in Greater Manchester, and it means that Greater Manchester is in breach of the standards—the legal limits—for nitrogen dioxide. This simply cannot carry on, and I welcome the focus in the Bill on air quality.

I hope that the Government will go further and give Greater Manchester the powers to introduce a clean air zone. I ask the Minister: what reason can there be for the Government to exclude Greater Manchester from the list of places that they have allowed to introduce clean air zones, other than cost? Cost is not a good enough reason. It is not good enough that children are breathing in polluted air on the way to school. We look forward to his and the Government’s help in solving that problem.

If all of this were not bad enough in the experience of the travelling public, we are paying through the nose for it as well. A £100 million subsidy has been given to the bus companies annually, while at the same time they have been paying out large dividends to their shareholders. This system really does not work for the public in any meaningful way. As I say, it is time to call time on what is a failed ideological experiment.

I give credit to Sir Howard Bernstein, who has been mentioned, and Sir Richard Leese and Lord Peter Smith, as well as other leaders of Greater Manchester, who in my view were right to insist that the Bill should be part of the devolution deal that was done with Greater Manchester. I pay tribute to the former Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), for agreeing to that request, and indeed to the current Minister and the Secretary of State for sticking by the deal and making sure that the Bill was put before the House.

However, I want to press the Minister and the Government on a number of concerns. An issue that several colleagues have raised today is the decision to reintroduce the clause that will restrict municipal ownership of bus companies. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) said, why restrict people, because we could at least have that as an option? From my point of view, as someone who might consider using the franchising powers, to have the fall-back option of a publicly owned company being able to come in and provide the service if there were no bidders on the terms sought would provide leverage, would it not? It would do so if they knew they could run a service because they had such an option up their sleeve. I say to the Minister that nobody wants anything to happen to the Bill that might disrupt its passage, but the Government should surely give people such flexibility so that they can make full use of the powers proposed in it.

Another issue I want to mention is the one raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton. He talked about the regulations that have been published very recently—within the past couple of days—relating to the Bill. They state that the powers in the Bill can be given to a metropolitan mayoral area only if a “compelling case” is presented—not just a viable case, but a compelling one. In his winding-up speech, the Minister needs to spell out precisely what that means. Is he erecting a high hurdle to prevent metropolitan mayors from using the powers in the Bill?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Andrew Jones)]

indicated dissent.

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister shakes his head, but I want to see more reassurance than that. If he wants to intervene and say more about it now, he is more than welcome to do so. We cannot have such obstacles placed in our way that may actually limit our ability to use the welcome powers in the Bill.

I see that the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers) has retaken her seat, and I do not want to finish without making some reference to her speech. Frankly, I did find it quite difficult to listen to at times. She said that it was right for London to have the powers it gained by being exempted from the original deregulation measures because London is so different. I will tell her one way in which London is different: for every £1 in transport investment that we receive in the whole of the north of England, London gets £6. That inequality has existed for many decades. Consequently, people in London have several public transport options. They can use high-quality commuter trains, the tube network, the docklands light railway, regulated buses, and the bike scheme and dedicated cycle lanes. My constituents have no such choice. They are stuck with using the bus if they do not have a car. That is the difference. It is so wrong of the right hon. Lady to say that what is acceptable for her constituents is not right for Opposition Members’ constituents, who are stuck in their cars.