Constitutional Law

Debate between Alison Thewliss and Tommy Sheppard

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Tommy Sheppard]

I think I agree with the sentiments expressed by the hon. Gentleman. To come back to the discussion on capital borrowing requirements, the other important point that must surely be made, which reflects what he says about who is responsible, is that there is context. That context is a 16% cut—16.1%, to be exact—in the block grant available for capital funding of public services in Scotland. That is not my figure; it was provided by the House of Commons Library in an analysis done on figures provided by the Treasury. That is the real-terms cut that central Government are making, and it means that the borrowing limits available to the Scottish Government have then to be used to compensate for those cuts and to mitigate their effects.

There has been discussion about how these borrowing limits came about as a result of the Smith commission proposals, but this order is in direct contravention of the spirit of the Smith commission. The proposal from the Smith commission was not that UK capital spending that takes place in Scotland should be devolved to the Scottish Government and the Scottish Government should take control of it. That was not the proposal; I might have considered that and supported that, as somebody who supported full fiscal autonomy for the Scottish Government at the time, but that was not what we were discussing.

The proposal that came from the Smith commission was for a supplemental capacity for the Scottish Government to borrow additional moneys to fund particular projects and public services in Scotland if they had a mandate to do so. It was not meant to compensate for core capital funding. Therefore, as the Scottish Government are now being forced to do that, the cost of UK capital spending in Scotland is being incrementally transferred from the UK Exchequer to the Scottish Government. That, my friends, is a Union dividend in reverse. That is a Union penalty. That is the price we are having to pay for being part of these arrangements.

[Alison Thewliss]

My hon. Friend is making some excellent points on the impact of the budget cuts to capital funding. Does he appreciate that for constituents of ours there are direct consequences of that, combined with the inflation we have seen? The rebuilding of the quay wall at Windmillcroft Quay in my constituency is now facing real problems, because the shortfall in the project budget is in the region of £25 million as a result of the inflation in construction and other things. When the capital grant gets cut, there is no way of making that up.

[Tommy Sheppard]

I agree with that. I was just coming on to talk about the impact of these cuts and the fact that, even with increased borrowing by the Scottish Government, we are still talking in overall terms about a 9% reduction in the capital budget in Scotland. A 9% reduction means that some big projects are going to be delayed and some are going to be shelved. People who are looking for a new building or a new piece of infrastructure in their constituency should understand, when they are told delays are going to take place, that those are a consequence of what we are deciding here.

Of course, not all capital spending is to do with big, grandiose projects; a lot of capital spending is focused on improving the day-to-day operational delivery of public services, and therefore the consequences of cuts and delays will have an impact on revenue budgets as well. If we cannot improve the energy efficiency of a particular building through capital improvements, it will cost more to run that building. If we have to provide temporary facilities, that will cost more.

There is a double whammy. Not only is the capital budget having to be funded in part by a charge on the revenue budget to Scottish taxpayers, because of the borrowing the Scottish Government undertake, but the revenue consequences elsewhere in operational budgets will put them under considerable additional strain.

International Day of Democracy

Debate between Alison Thewliss and Tommy Sheppard

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Westminster Hall

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Betts—for the first time, I think. I fear we may have scheduled more time for this debate than we require.

My brief as a spokesperson for the third party—the Scottish National party—relates to the Cabinet Office and the constitution, rather than to international development. However, I have been asked to speak in this debate on the UN International Day of Democracy because we see it as an opportunity not to exhort others to catch up with us, but to reflect on how we can improve our own democracy within this Parliament and on these islands. That is what my comments will address, but I appreciate that the Minister may be unable or unlikely to respond to them all.

Over the summer, I was privileged to be asked to give the Thomas Muir memorial lecture. Thomas Muir was a radical Scottish lawyer in the late 18th century who formed an organisation called the Friends of the People. He was an associate of Thomas Paine, Wolfe Tone and many other radicals of the time. He argued for universal adult male suffrage, as well as for annually elected Parliaments—an idea that some hon. Members may not like. He was accused of sedition, sentenced, and transported to the colonies for 14 years. Such was life in the 18th century; they do not do that to us today.

I thought I would reflect on what Thomas Muir might make, if he were alive today, of the imperfect democracy we have achieved in the several hundred years since his death. I think he would be surprised by some aspects of our democracy in the United Kingdom in 2017. First, given that he argued for elected Parliaments, he would be very surprised that the majority of parliamentarians in the United Kingdom are not elected by anyone. The House of Lords is an affront to democrats. It has more than 800 Members, and apparently its numbers are set to be increased with no upper limit. It is now the second-largest legislature in the world, after the National People’s Congress in the People’s Republic of China. Nobody has any say over who the Lords are, what they do or how they can be held accountable. We are long overdue a major reform of Parliament that abolishes the House of Lords and replaces it with an elected second Chamber that can properly revise legislation and do the business of Parliament.

I think Muir would also be rather shocked that on 8 June, 14 million people in the United Kingdom chose not to exercise their right to vote, for which he and many others died several hundred years ago. It is incumbent on all of us who value the democratic system to ask why not, because it is a serious problem. Are great numbers of people apathetic, and happy to leave decisions to others and consent to them? Or is there a degree of alienation, so that many people feel that there is no point in participating in the political system because it does not represent their views or seem to do anything to change the lives of those around them? I think there is a bit of both. I do not know what we can do about the apathy, but there are certainly some things we can do to improve the electoral system.

First, we should completely overhaul how we teach civics and democratic participation in our school system and in our society more generally. We have to see politics as something that people actively participate in—something they do, rather than something that is done to them. The teaching of elections, electoral processes and politics needs a radical overhaul at all levels, from primary school upwards.

Secondly, we could overhaul the process of voting. In this day and age, it is bizarre that people can vote only in a very defined period, in a defined place and a defined way. We need to look at using 21st-century technology to allow people to vote in much greater numbers than ever before. I see no reason why people cannot be given a secure ID number to allow them to cast their vote online. For Conservative Members, that would have the added benefit of dealing with one of their greatest concerns, the threat of personation—people voting when they are not entitled to. Giving people a unique ID would take care of that problem.

Thirdly, we need to do something about the electoral system. The first-past-the-post system is another affront to democrats, because it quite simply does not allow the representation in Parliament of people’s views in the proportion in which they exist in society. It has created a two-party system that obliges people to have their views compromised rather than represented. I firmly believe that modernising our electoral system through a form of proportional representation would allow the growth of many more parties, a much more pluralistic debate in our country and the emergence of better Governments. To those who complain, as some do, that PR gives unstable Government, I point out that on two of the last three occasions on which first past the post was used for elections to this House, it has produced an inconclusive result, and, I would argue, an unstable Government, so we urgently need to look at electoral reform.

[Alison Thewliss]

My hon. Friend is giving an excellent speech, and I very much support the points he makes. Before he moves on from the process issues around elections and electoral set-ups, does he agree that we also need to look at a better system of electoral registration in this country, perhaps going to auto-enrolment? It struck me during the independence referendum that we saw people registering to vote who had not voted since the poll tax. We really need to make sure that we reach everybody and allow them, as much as we can, to have their say in elections.

[Tommy Sheppard]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. Yes, I do agree, in short. It is ridiculous that people have to apply for the right to vote. For citizens of the country, that should be automatic; it should be given, and people should not have to apply for it. If the state is capable of interacting with its citizens when it comes to issuing driver licences, collecting taxes and in many other areas, it really ought to be possible, when there is an interaction between a citizen and the state, to check whether that person is on the register, and if they are not but are entitled to be, to automatically put them on it. It seems to me that the technology is available to us to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tommy Sheppard]

I am in favour of—what was the word that the Eurocrats used to use? I have forgotten.

[Alison Thewliss]

Subsidiarity.

[Tommy Sheppard]

Subsidiarity, yes. I was a big fan of that in its day. Basically, it is the principle that power should be exercised at the level closest to people at which it can be exercised and at which it is practical to do so. I am all in favour of power and governance being transferred to the most local level possible.

I will make just one other suggestion. We tend to get hidebound in these debates and conflate two things that ought not to be conflated. One is the question of community participation and communities setting their own priorities; the other is the management of things. For example, there was a headline in the Edinburgh Evening News that it would be possible to have at least a dozen—if not more—local councils in a city the size of Edinburgh. However, that does not mean that there must be a dozen refuse departments or a dozen education departments. We could separate the process of running and managing services from the process of deciding on the priority of the things those services should achieve. If we could do that, we could make big strides forward and we would emulate some of the much more successful schemes in Europe, including in Scandinavia, and in other parts of the world that allow much better local governance and setting of priorities.

I conclude by saying why this issue is important, including why it is important for the United Nations, and why we often talk about democratic rights and human rights being intertwined. It is because all the studies show that there is a clear relationship between people’s participation in society, the control they have over their everyday lives, and their happiness. Improving democratic rights and the way that people can participate and run their own lives is also about improving the human condition. It is about becoming a more civilised, more progressive and better, more modern society. This opportunity to discuss the UN’s day—I hope that our discussion is the beginning of the debate, rather than its conclusion—allows us to reflect on these issues and consider how we can improve our processes here, because we cannot just wait for an election in another two, three, four or even five years before we get round to considering these issues.