Criminal Justice Bill (Second sitting)

Alex Cunningham Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 12th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Metcalfe]

Thank you very much.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

Q Rebecca, I am really interested in the stuff about 10-year-olds. You said that if there were a situation in which one of these orders would be applicable, there would be other issues in that child’s life that were affecting their behaviours and everything else. What would be better than imposing this sort of order on a child of 10?

Rebecca Bryant: Look at how we respond to antisocial behaviour. It is a partnership response—things like Supporting Families, which used to be Troubled Families, and those types of interventions and support provided to the whole family, which are trauma-informed and understanding of adverse childhood experiences, and recognise that behaviour is often a symptom of something happening within the family environment. We should be taking a whole-family approach, rather than looking at a young person, a 10-year-old, as an individual on their own. There is something there about the drivers of why that young 10-year-old is behaving in the way that they are. It is much more complex than focusing on a specific incident perpetrated by a child at the age of 10.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q Would you accept that a family that has a child with challenges in his or her life may not be the best equipped to ensure that the child adheres to any order placed on them, and the child may therefore end up in the criminal end of the business rather than the supported end of the business?

Rebecca Bryant: That is a fair assessment. Civil enforcement powers do not enforce; all they really do is set out very clearly how society expects individuals to behave. There is an expectation when that order is given that the person is able to comply. If a young person aged 10 or 11 is perpetrating and demonstrating this type of behaviour, are you setting them up to fail if you are not thinking about different sorts of interventions and support? You could think of supporting the parent to become a better parent, able to set boundaries and support longer term change, or using other trusted adults and other types of intervention and remedy to support that young person to change.

[Alex Cunningham]

That is very helpful. Thank you.

--- Later in debate ---

[Laura Farris]

Okay, thank you.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q I want to take you back to the shop workers issue. Minister Philp, in his comments, clearly demonstrated that the Government are a bit shy of having a specific charge related to assaults on shop workers. For the record, can you tell us why shoplifting and related crime does not get the attention it requires and that the public, shop workers and the USDAW would like it to have?

Andy Marsh: In explaining this, I am in no way seeking to justify a lack of attention, but when a call is made to a police control room, they will triage it and they will use something called a threat, harm and risk matrix. If the offender has left the scene and no one is at immediate risk, that is unlikely to secure an immediate deployment. There is more likely to be a follow-up investigation. The retail crime action plan and guidance on our website, and all the focus on the use of images and facial recognition and on persistent offenders, is bringing a much sharper focus to an area of standards and police response that has slipped to an unacceptably low level.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q You are saying that in recent times the police have not responded to shop crime in the way that they ought to have.

Andy Marsh: Yes, that is very often the case. For example, if on the one hand you had an incident of shoplifting where the offender had left the scene—let’s say the items stolen were less than £50—but on the other hand you had a report of a domestic violence incident or some antisocial behaviour happening on the street right now, those two calls would be prioritised above the shoplifting.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q How much of it is a resource issue? If there were more neighbourhood police, would that sort of thing get the attention everybody believes it deserves?

Andy Marsh: When you look at the changes in crime type over the last decade, we have seen a very significant rise in what I would call complex crime and vulnerability. The answer is that the police need to be able to respond to complex crime and vulnerability, and they need to be able to secure the confidence of the public in their ability to deal with shoplifting. I am a big supporter of neighbourhood policing. We intend next year to introduce a professionalising neighbourhood policing programme, which will give neighbourhood officers, for example, not only the training and skills to deal with shoplifting, but the new powers on antisocial behaviour to keep their communities safe.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q That is helpful. I wonder if either of you could educate me in another area. If somebody comes into your home and bashes you, is that level of crime higher than if it happens in a public place or a shop? Is the law different?

Andy Cooke: No, the law is not different. The aggravating factor is that it is inside your house, not in a public space. People may consider that one is worse than the other, but at the end of the day the offence is the same, unless there is a weapon involved, as it obviously becomes a different offence after that—in private and in public—but both are equally serious.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q Is there not the same level of aggravating factor if somebody goes into a corner shop, where someone lives over the shop, and bashing that person?

Andy Cooke: The law would not necessarily say so. It would depend on the circumstances, on the weapons used and on whether it was a public or a private place. An open shop is, to a great extent, seen as a public place. The point I am trying to make is that an assault on a shop worker in a shop is a serious issue, and policing needs to do better to respond to these issues. I do not think there is any chief constable in the country who would disagree with that.

You asked if it was a resource issue. If there were more police officers, then they would be able to respond to more issues. Part of it is around prioritisation; and chief constables are responsible for the prioritisation that they choose. Have chief constables across the board got that prioritisation right? In my view, no, because a lot of the neighbourhood crimes we see—the thefts, car crime, burglaries, robberies—for some time have not been given sufficient credence, nor sufficiently tackled, as we have seen from the very low charge and disposal rates.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q You said a few moments ago that the aggravating factor in a corner shop situation would not necessarily apply. Is there not a case for strengthening the law to protect the corner shop keeper or the person in Marks & Spencer who is assaulted? Should the fact that they are being attacked within their workplace not be an aggravating factor?

Andy Cooke: I understand fully the point you are making. I think it might strengthen the response from the police, as opposed to strengthening the law. The question of whether there should be a separate offence for teachers or other people in the community has been asked already. There are enough laws to deal with this. It is the response from policing that needs to improve. The response from some of the retailers themselves—that is, the bigger retailers, who can afford to put more money into this—also needs to improve.

[Alex Cunningham]

Thank you.

[The Chair]

If there are no further questions, I thank our witnesses for their evidence. We will move on to the next panel. Thank you very much, the two Andys.

Examination of Witness

Dame Vera Baird KC gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I just gave the very briefest background.

Dame Vera Baird: Well, I’ve lived a long time—let’s be careful.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q You are very welcome, Vera. I think this is the third or fourth Bill where we have taken evidence from you, when myself and Minister Philp have been in the room.

You are aware that the Victims and Prisoners Bill is still going through Parliament; it is hoped that it will be improved somewhat in the Lords. Can you offer a general comment on how you see this Bill providing additional solace for victims?

Dame Vera Baird: I think there are some bits of it that are good and perhaps will be very helpful to victims. The real problem with the Bill, if I may be really clear about it, is that it does not really contribute to solving the key criminal justice issues of the day, which are that charging has collapsed, prosecutions are few, there is a backlog of 65,000 at the courts—which has got worse, not better, since the end of the pandemic—and the prisons are full. There is no coherent strategy or provision in the Bill that is tackling any of those issues. Fine, there is some change to sentencing, but you have to appreciate how few people get as far as sentencing these days. I wonder whether we are not starting at the wrong end.

However, having said that—and I do say that, very strongly; and in that sense, the Bill is a disappointment—there are some bits of it that are very welcome.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q Which ones?

Dame Vera Baird: I think that rationalising the way intimate images are dealt with is very good. The Law Commission has done a really good job of doing that. I think there are a couple of missing bits, which I could come back to later. Probably some of the aggravating sentence provisions are good, but I am worried about the fact that the Wade review has not been implemented as a whole.

There is a risk with the aggravations of sentence in domestic abuse without the mitigating factor in the Wade review. If someone strikes back after suffering coercive control for a long time, that should be a serious mitigation. I can easily see some of the aggravating provisions catching women, who will not be protected by the mitigation. Although some of the aggravations are fine, that is a real problem for women victims of coercive control—coercive control is 90-odd per cent. men on women; there is no doubt of that. That is the classic model of male-on-female, spousal domestic abuse. I am worried a little bit about that, but the basic provisions are reasonably okay.

I am pretty worried about prisoners going abroad. The problem with that is that it is permission without really knowing what permission is being given for: we do not know what kind of prisoners will go, whether it will be in the middle of their trial, whether it will be while they are still on remand or any of it. That is a little worrying. It is a bit of a mixed bag.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q We will move on a little. Given what you have said, do clauses 23 and 24 about the aggravating factors in grooming and the end of relationship go far enough?

Dame Vera Baird: I am not sure what the grooming one adds; I think it just broadens it. If grooming is involved, it is already taken into account as an aggravating factor in sentencing. Perhaps we can do that with a person who might have abused a groomed child directly. Perhaps this provision broadens it so that if the person who fixes up the child is also groomed—perhaps become someone has gone through him, grooming is in the environment and so it will enhance the sentence. The Bill broadens this a little; if it does, it is a good flag to wave because we want to tackle grooming and make sure it is taken into account. But I do not see it as a major change.

The problem is where there is a victim of someone abusive, and the killing is brought about by the victim’s decision to try to leave—or to leave. So we are looking at aggravating the sentence of an abusive person when the victim has said she is going to leave. That is a classic model, which Jess knows all about: the eight steps to homicide. That has been well researched. Professor Jane Monckton-Smith talks about this: when the victim says she is going to leave is the most dangerous time. That is the time when killing happens, so it is appropriate to aggravate the sentence because of that position being there—it is commonplace.

The worry is that sometimes women who have been coercively controlled for a very long time and have suffered badly are also aware that their husband is being unfaithful with someone else. He says that he is going off with the other woman, and that can trigger her to kill him. Without the protection in the Wade review—to say that if she is being coercively controlled, that is a mitigation—what you will have done is to aggravate her sentence through this change, which is not a thing that anyone intends. It could do with just another quick look at how it will work.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q Clause 30, which addresses the assessing and managing of risk posed by coercive behaviour in offenders, refers to an “intimate or family relationship”. Is that wording of the clause clear enough? The expression “intimate” opens too wide an interpretation —or perhaps too narrow an interpretation.

Dame Vera Baird: I am honestly not sure about that; I have not given it much thought. It sounded like what we would expect to be there, so I do not think I have much of a comment.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q There are two other things. The first is clause 22, which compels a defendant to attend court for sentencing. I think we all realise that that will be challenging to implement, but what are the benefits and pitfalls of that proposal in relation to the victim?

Dame Vera Baird: As I am sure the Ministers know very well, this adds absolutely nothing to the current law. A judge can order somebody to come into court. If they do not, it is a contempt of court.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q The clause actually talks about using “reasonable force”.

Dame Vera Baird: But you can already use reasonable force. As long as it is proportionate and necessary, the Prison Service is entitled to use reasonable force to fulfil the orders of the judge. If the judge says, “You must come” and you do not come, it is, No. 1, a contempt of court. And guess what the maximum sentence is for a contempt court? It is two years, exactly as it is in the Bill. If a person does not want to come and the officers regard it as necessary and proportionate to use force to bring them, they are entitled to do exactly that to fulfil the judge’s requirements. There is really no change here.

I well understand the sense from a victim that they want this moment—“Right, he’s going to face what he’s done now and I’m going to get some benefit from that.” But the reality is that you cannot capture somebody’s mind, can you? There are always risks that people who are dragged into court might be a nuisance. You can just imagine what could be done there. So it is a very difficult one to get right, although I understand the impulse to try to do this.

I think it was the former Lord Chief Justice John Thomas who suggested that a better way was to make sure that if the person does not come out of the cell, he is in a cell to which the sentencing can be broadcast. He cannot get away and the victims know that he has, as it were, faced his moment. Whatever he is doing—whether he is listening or he is not—they do not know, and that is the time passed.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q That is very helpful. This is my final point. Clauses 11 and 12 address the offence of encouraging and assisting serious self-harm, and of course there are plenty of victims in that sort of category. Are those clauses fit for purpose or could they be improved?

Dame Vera Baird: I think they probably need to be strengthened quite a lot. I do not think there is anything in there that could criminalise somebody who provided a means for doing it as opposed to encouraging it. So if someone provides—I do not know—a knife or some drugs, I am not sure there is provision for that, and I think that is a big miss. This is a really worrying area and we need to legislate, and that is one of the good things in the Bill.

[Laura Farris]

Q I just wanted to clarify something. A statutory instrument is going through the Lords today on coercive control as both an aggravating factor and a mitigating factor, to deal with exactly the point that Clare Wade was driving at. Some of what we have done in relation to Clare Wade is not in this Bill. This is not the entirety of our implementation of the Clare Wade review, and I just wanted to provide that reassurance. Not all of that requires primary legislation.

In that context, coercive control is making its way through in different forms. I have a narrow question about what you thought about the use of MAPPA—multi-agency public protection arrangements—in relation to the management of a serious coercive control offence.

Dame Vera Baird: I think it is good to state that formally. I am sure that it happens now quite a lot.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Jonathan Hall, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, who is joining us via Zoom. For this panel we have until 4.10 pm, so could Members keep an eye on the clock?

[Alex Cunningham]

Q Good afternoon, Jonathan. We have exchanged questions and answers a few times on Bills in recent years. What measures in this Bill will make our country safer from terrorists?

Jonathan Hall: There is only one measure that deals with counter-terrorism. It has to do with allowing released terrorist offenders of a certain category to be subject to polygraph measures. In principle, I suggest that polygraph measures for released terrorist offenders are a good thing; there was an evaluation by the Ministry of Justice in October that tends to support that. However, there are some significant reservations about the way the provision is being put before Parliament, which involves—impermissibly, I think—giving the Secretary of State powers that should belong to judges. This is a slightly technical point, but if you will give me a moment, I would like to explain it.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q I think you expressed reservations about a similar set of circumstances when we were considering another Bill a couple of years ago. Are you saying that the provisions in clause 31, subsections (4) to (6), are insufficient?

Jonathan Hall: What I am saying is that normally it is for judges to decide whether a person is a terrorist. That is what they do: either someone is convicted of or pleads guilty to a terrorism offence, or the judge makes a special determination that their offence, which could be something like robbery or assault, was done either in the course of terrorism or for the purposes of terrorism. But this clause would allow the Secretary of State to do that exact exercise in relation to people who were convicted pre-2009. You might well have someone coming up for release who went to prison having been convicted of a non-terrorism offence, but now finds themselves converted into a terrorist offender by a decision of the Secretary of State. The view I take is that that is really a function of judges.

In fact, if you look at the wording of the Bill, the Secretary of State will be allowed to be “satisfied”—not beyond reasonable doubt, just satisfied—on exactly the same test that currently applies to judges. There is obviously a fundamental issue there, which I can expand on, but there is also a really practical issue, because what is a terrorism offence is not always very obvious. Can I give you an example, so that this does not sound pie-in-the-sky and theoretical?

[Alex Cunningham]

Yes, please.

Jonathan Hall: I do not know whether the Committee recalls the Liverpool Women’s Hospital bombing, but there was a gentleman in 2020 who blew himself up in a taxi, and it looked like a classic terrorist attack. He was a Muslim, although it appeared that he had converted to Christianity, and he had a suicide vest packed with explosives. The police did a two-year investigation—he killed himself, so there was no prosecution—and they concluded that in fact it was not terrorism at all. He was simply affected by a grievance to do with not being granted asylum.

That shows you how difficult it is. I would be really wary about the Secretary of State being allowed to go back in time to look at all these old offences and say, “I decide that this was a terrorism offence.” The Bill does not give a right to be heard to the person who is going to find his conviction converted into a terrorism offence. It does not give the prosecution a right to be heard, which is actually quite important because the prosecution will often understand these things very well. It would allow the Secretary of State, I think, to act on the basis of intelligence that is not even shown. In principle, it seems to me wrong.

This issue has arisen before. I do not know whether the Committee is aware, but you will have people who were convicted of terrorism offences abroad; if they are British nationals, they will perhaps be deported to the UK after they have served their imprisonment. There is a provision in the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 that allows the chief officer to go to a judge and say, “Look: we think that this person was convicted of a terrorism offence that is the same as a terrorism offence in this country. Can you please certify that that is the case, or can you certify that the offence was committed in the course of terrorism?” If the judge says yes, that allows all the post-release measures—such as polygraph measures, with which this clause is concerned—to be applied. So there is a model that already exists for old foreign offences. Slightly ironically, the power that Parliament is being asked to create here would make the protections available to a domestic offender less than those that apply to a foreign offender.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q So it may even be challengeable under the law at some future stage. I am looking forward to our line-by-line discussions in Committee, after the evidence that you have just given. Finally, do we need to add any new measures to better manage terrorist offenders on release?

Jonathan Hall: No, I do not think so at the moment. I am in constant contact with counter-terrorism police and the Home Office. I am not aware that the Government are looking for yet further types of measure; if they were, I think they would have sought to bring them in within this Criminal Justice Bill. All that this particular measure does is allow an existing measure, polygraphs, to be applied to a wider range of people. My beef with that is that it allows it to be applied to people who have never been convicted of terrorism, without it going in front of a judge. So I think that the answer is no.

[Laura Farris]

Q You have made some very important points about cohort and how that is determined, and obviously the risk of a borderline case—or a case where, in fact, a judge may not have found a terrorism offence—being brought into scope. More widely, what is your view on the efficacy of polygraph testing? How useful a tool is it in the detection of risk?

Jonathan Hall: I was in favour of polygraph measures after Fishmongers’ Hall. It was partly on the back of one of my recommendations that polygraph measures were brought in. They always, or at least for a long time, existed for sex offenders. You will recall Usman Khan, who was clearly a very deceptive man. My view was that polygraph measures could be useful.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Professor Penney Lewis, commissioner for criminal law at the Law Commission. We have until 4.30 pm for this panel. Could you please introduce yourself for the record?

Professor Lewis: I am Professor Penney Lewis; I am the commissioner for criminal law at the Law Commission of England and Wales.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q You are very welcome this afternoon, Penney. What does the Law Commission see as the major benefits of this Bill in better serving justice?

Professor Lewis: We are extremely pleased that there are measures from four of our projects in the Bill. Those are the provisions that I can speak about today. Those four projects are intimate image abuse; modernising communications offences; corporate criminal liability; and confiscation of the proceeds of crime. If I say a little about each of those—[Interruption.]

[Alex Cunningham]

I beg your pardon—my phone was making a noise.

[The Chair]

Can we all check that our phones are on silent, please, and that they haven’t got a mind of their own?

Professor Lewis: I will start with confiscation, because that is the largest area of the Bill; the provisions are in schedule 4. The review aimed to simplify, clarify and modernise the post-conviction confiscation regime—in other words, the confiscation of the proceeds of crime after someone has been convicted.

We know that the current regime works in some cases, where it can result in funds being allocated to victims through compensation that can be paid out of confiscation, but there is still a fairly strong consensus among stakeholders that the current regime is inefficient, overly complex and in some cases ineffective, with weak enforcement methods. Our recommendations were aimed at improving the current system to give courts more powers to enforce confiscation orders and seize offenders’ assets, but also to limit unrealistic orders that can never be paid back and to speed up confiscation proceedings, thus allowing victims to receive compensation more quickly.

I will touch on the other three projects, which have a smaller number of measures in the Bill. As I think most of you will know, some of the recommendations that the Law Commission made on intimate image abuse were implemented in the Online Safety Act 2023: the offences of sharing an intimate image without consent and with no reasonable belief in consent; and threatening to share an intimate image. The other recommendations that we made were taking an intimate image without consent; and installing equipment in order to take an intimate image without consent. Those offences could not be included in the Online Safety Act because they are not communications offences, so this is really the second half of the implementation of our recommendations.

We aimed to provide a clear, coherent and cohesive set of offences that would cover all types of sharing and taking without consent, that would have one consistent definition of an intimate image and that would reflect different motivations that defendants might have for sharing and taping intimate images without consent, including cases where the defendant apparently has no motive. We recognise more serious culpability with motives of intending to cause humiliation, alarm or distress, or for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, but we also recommended criminalising cases where those motives cannot be proven. We are very pleased that those offences have now been included in the Criminal Justice Bill.

Briefly, corporate criminal liability is another example of the completion of implementation—something that we discussed in our options paper. It was not a full report, so it did not have recommendations, but it had a number of options. One was reform of the identification doctrine. You may know that the Economic, Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 included reform of the identification doctrine, which allows for the attribution of personal criminal liability to the corporation in certain circumstances where the person is a senior manager, so it expands that form of attribution. That could only be done in relation to economic crime in the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act, so the reform in this Bill basically expands that to include all types of crime for which a corporate liability may be appropriate.

Finally—yes, I am getting to the end of my answer—one offence in the Bill, which is encouraging or assisting a serious self-harm, is again the expansion of something that was the implementation of a recommendation for the Online Safety Act from our modernising communications offences project. That offence was included in the Act insofar as it was a communications offence, but it is also possible to encourage self-harm by handing somebody a knife, so this expanded offence in the Criminal Justice Bill includes that kind of more physical assistance. It is not restricted to assistance by way of communication.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q That is a pretty full answer, thank you. May I ask you about clauses 23 and 24 and the aggravating factors in relation to grooming and the end of relationship? Do they go far enough?

Professor Lewis: Those clauses are not the implementation of any Law Commission recommendations, I am afraid. The Law Commission does not take a position on those parts of the law that we have not had the opportunity to investigate or to speak to stakeholders about. I am afraid I cannot help on that.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q I assume that the same applies to clause 30 on coercive behaviour offenders, where the language in the Bill refers to an “intimate or family relationship”. I was going to ask for your view on whether that expression is too wide—the intimate relationship. Is that something you would comment on or not?

Professor Lewis: It is not something we have looked at in relation to that clause. I would take a very small opportunity here to mention that we are about to start a project on defences for victims who kill their abusers, so we will be looking at the kind of relationship that should qualify in relation to defences. We are aware that if, for example, one restricts it to intimate-partner violence, then one risks excluding “honour-based” killing, which can also happen in a family context. We are planning to look at that, but we have not looked at it yet.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q Have you done any work on homelessness and people on the streets—aggressive beggars and things of that nature? I wanted to ask you your opinion on whether the measures proposed by the Government—I think there are 30 clauses in this particular area—are proportionate, workable and fair. Is that something you would comment on?

Professor Lewis: I am really sorry to disappoint, but it is not something we have looked at. We did look at homelessness as a possible protected characteristic for the purposes of hate crime law when we did the project on hate crime law a few years ago, which you may remember. That was a really interesting and revealing experience, because when we first started talking to stakeholders, some of them, including Shelter, were quite opposed to the idea of including homelessness as a protected characteristic—they thought that it entrenched homelessness when we should be trying to remove it and prevent it.

When Shelter spoke to homeless people on our behalf, which was really helpful, and when we spoke to homeless people, they actually described a lot of very horrific criminal behaviour perpetrated against them, and they experienced that as a hate crime. They experienced it as involving hostility towards them because they were homeless. We have some experience of looking at that. Ultimately, we did not recommend the expansion of hate crime law; as you may remember, there was a lot of opposition to its expansion. But we certainly saw the benefit of making sure we spoke to homeless stakeholders in order to really understand their lived experience.

[Alex Cunningham]

Q You will not comment on the begging issues?

Professor Lewis: I am afraid that is not something that we have looked at.

[Chris Philp]

Q Penney, welcome to the Committee. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. Sorry if you got stuck in security downstairs. Can I start by asking about the proceeds of crime measures referred to in clause 32 and expanded on in the extremely long schedule 4, which takes up about 38 pages? Can I just check that those follow your recommendations and that you are happy with them? Can you give the Committee some sense of the impact you think the Bill will have if passed?

Professor Lewis: Many paragraphs of the schedule do implement our recommendations. We are extremely pleased to see our recommendations implemented extremely swiftly. This project only reported over a year ago. We obviously do think that the changes we recommended would make a difference in the ways I mentioned earlier, which included improving enforcement and the ability to seize offenders’ assets, limiting unrealistic and in some cases unfair orders, and allowing victims to receive compensation more promptly.

We estimated at the time that the reforms could lead to an extra £8 million in funds being retrieved from criminals in England and Wales every year. That obviously helps to return more money that can be used on public services, for instance. I am happy to talk in more detail about specific recommendations if that would be helpful.