Cleveland Fire Authority

Alex Cunningham Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

First, I thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to have this important Adjournment debate.

I am sure that hon. and right hon. Members—at least those on the Opposition Benches—are acutely aware of the financial squeeze being applied to their fire and rescue authorities by central Government. Indeed, two years ago, my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) raised the point that Cleveland’s government settlement was the second worst in the country. However, I fear that many Members and the public might not be aware of this Government’s support, both financial and political, for proposals to take front-line fire and rescue services out of the public sector.

The Minister may say that this is not the case and that these services would remain under local authority control. However, the community interest company in the case of Cleveland fire authority, is already registered at Companies House as a separate entity, and managers are stating that an expansion of the existing CIC is the vehicle they intend to use for the formation of a “public service mutual”.

Recently, fellow Cleveland MPs and I met the Cleveland fire authority. Let me make it clear now that the categorical statement from the chair and other members was that they would do nothing that would lead to the privatisation of the service. However, the chief fire officer said that any contract would be subject to competition after the initial contract awarded to any mutual expired. He said at that meeting that the initial contract could be for anything from three to nine years. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) and I have been greatly concerned about what the chief fire officer—along with, if I may add, firm Government encouragement—had proposed.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I am sure he agrees that the Cleveland fire chief responsible for the area that probably has the highest fire risk in Europe is ploughing a lone furrow with his proposals, given that other fire chiefs throughout the country are dismissing the mutual model, and firefighters themselves are convinced that competition law would soon open the way for private companies to take them over and put profits—

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Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. (Mr Swayne.)

[Alex Cunningham]

That took me a little by surprise, Mr. Speaker.

I am expecting my hon. Friend to agree with me that the Cleveland fire chief responsible for the area that probably has the highest fire risk in Europe is ploughing a lone furrow with his proposals, given that other fire chiefs throughout the country are dismissing the mutual model, and firefighters themselves are convinced that competition law would soon open the way for private companies to take them over and put profits before people—for the second time of asking.

[Mr Speaker]

We probably got it the first time, and certainly the second.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for calling me to speak.

“From foundation trust hospitals to co-operative trust schools, we are already seeing the benefits that new mutual organisations are bringing to public services. These can provide the efficiency gains of the private sector whilst providing…democratic accountability, giving users, employees and other stakeholders a real say in how their organisations are run. If we are serious about creating a new politics, then giving ordinary people real power over the services that they rely on is the best way to do it.”

Those words are from the website of the Co-operative party—the party with which the Labour party is in formal coalition.

I will go further. The Leader of the Opposition has also endorsed mutuals and co-operatives, and the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) said that he does too. The Leader of the Opposition endorsed them in local government in a pamphlet on that very topic. The Labour party’s own local elections launch praised councils for

“pursuing new co-operative models of service and delivery.”

I suspect that a party that was true to its word would seek to support Cleveland fire brigade in its mutual bid, rather than playing politics with it.

Today’s public sector faces huge challenges, and the services that are delivered remain as important as ever. With that in mind, I am somewhat surprised—just as some Members might have been after hearing those quotes—that Opposition Members have been arguing for months in the public domain, and again in the Chamber tonight, against Cleveland’s desire to mutualise. Although I have been lobbied continuously by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) and although the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) has approached me in a meeting, I am surprised that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, if he feels so strongly about the issue, has not come to see me to talk to me about it or to raise any of the concerns that he has just raised tonight. If he felt that strongly, I would have thought that he would have come to see me or asked to see me some time ago, when I could have explained the situation to him. We have done so publicly on a number of occasions and I will do so again tonight.

Fire and rescue authorities, like other organisations, need to innovate and to change in order to make the efficiencies that they want and need to find while continuing to deliver excellent services to the communities they serve. Being open to new ways of working is an important part of that and we are supporting those fire and rescue authorities that want to innovate and look for new delivery models, such as locally led mutuals.

At their heart, mutuals will give front-line staff a real stake in the ownership and governance of the organisations they work for. Giving front-line staff the power to do their jobs in the way that they know is best, as well as the power to be responsive to the needs of individuals, can create better, more efficient public services while feeding the benefits back to communities.

[Alex Cunningham]

Will the Minister answer this simple question: does he agree with the chief fire officer of Cleveland that after the initial contract—be that for three, four or nine years—any contract would be open to competition from any suitable provider at that stage?

[Brandon Lewis]

If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I will answer that question directly: it is on the assumption that the chief fire officer can go down that route in the first place. I made a statement to the FBU parliamentary group—the hon. Member for Wansbeck was there—in which I made it clear that we would not go down the route of allowing somebody to privatise a front-line fire service. I will return to that point in a few moments.

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[Brandon Lewis]

I am going to make some more progress given the time.

The key point is that we have listened to the responses and, following feedback, we have made it abundantly clear that despite the claims of the Labour party, we are not, as the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland clearly outlined in the quote by the Secretary of State, selling off the sector. My aim remains to support fire and rescue authorities in exploring new and innovative ways of providing their services, and we are reviewing the options to enable such models without opening up the delivery of key fire and rescue services to outside parties.

[Alex Cunningham]

Will the Minister give way?

[Brandon Lewis]

No, I will not, in view of the time.

Mutuals are also being considered as part of a wider review generally, in the case of the fire and rescue sector by Sir Ken Knight, whose report will be published shortly. However, mutuals are not the only innovative delivery model that fire and rescue authorities are considering. Some are exploring other opportunities that deliver benefits for their communities, while others are looking at closer joint working and sharing of resources within both the fire sector and the wider blue light community. Increased collaboration and partnership are excellent principles that all parties, whatever their political view, should endorse.

Cleveland fire and rescue authority, and others of its kind, should be lauded for exploring pioneering options for delivering its services for the benefit of its staff and, importantly, the community it serves. It, a Labour-controlled authority, has recognised the need to work in different ways and is seemingly not afraid to try new things in order to meet the challenges that the public sector faces and to do the best for its community.

I hope that I have responded to all my colleagues’ concerns. We may not agree on things, but the simple fact is that the Cleveland authority has asked us to look at something and we have said that we will do so. All parties should be working together to support Cleveland and any other fire and rescue authority that is trying to do something new and innovative for the benefit of its community. This is, and always has been, about giving the fire sector the freedom and flexibility to save lives and to deliver the excellent service that they provide to their communities.

Question put and agreed to.