English Votes for English Laws and North Wales

Debate between Albert Owen and Susan Elan Jones

Wednesday 1st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

Obviously, that happened. If it had been done at the same time as the London Mayor, and perhaps at the same time as another region, perhaps others would have clamoured for it later. I accept that that was an error. However, the right hon. Gentleman’s party, which opposed devolution at that time, has now wholly embraced it, so the Labour party has done his party a favour, moving it forward in many ways. The right hon. Gentleman, a pragmatic Secretary of State who wanted more devolution for Wales and for the rest of the UK, is evidence of that. I welcome the fact that many Conservative Members of Parliament have taken this journey, but I want the direction of the journey to be clear in future.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

This is an important subject. Does my hon. Friend agree that there are many types of devolution? He talks about English devolution. Once upon a time, I served as a borough councillor in London and I think the emphasis there would be on London-wide devolution, with virtually no interest in English devolution. Does he also agree with his predecessor, the late, great Cledwyn Hughes, who spoke of an authority for North Wales? I am not necessarily advocating that as a model, but there are different types of devolution and all have to be considered in the round.

[Albert Owen]

I am grateful for that intervention. I will develop my argument a little further, but my point is that devolution needs to be close to the people. In the original Welsh devolution settlement, the Assembly had regional bodies where we discussed many issues. I do not want devolution to be just a movement of powers from Westminster to Cardiff Bay: within Wales, I want it to go to Colwyn bay and Cardigan bay, and to Cemaes bay in my constituency. That is real devolution and that is what I am advocating. Devolution should not just be for one part of the UK. We need even distribution of devolution across the UK.

West Coast Main Line

Debate between Albert Owen and Susan Elan Jones

Monday 17th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

Just to help the hon. Gentleman, I have been raising rail issues for many years. I am the son of a railway man. Yes, I have raised it with Conservative/Liberal Democrat and Labour Ministers.

As for the process, what was clear from my meetings with the potential bidders was that they could not speak about the detail, so we were not that concerned. Now that we have heard the outcome, we have concerns—genuine concerns—on behalf of the taxpayer and the fare payer. That is why it is important to have this debate and why I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire.

The west coast line is important to my constituency. It is an historical link with north Wales, but it also linked the capital of England with the capital of Ireland. Many of the trains that went from Euston to Holyhead carried the Royal Mail—the great Irish Mail trains—but another reason why the link was so important was that it brought Members of Parliament from Ireland to this place for important votes. In those days, Members of Parliament from different parts of the country had real influence over train services—less so today—and one of the reasons for the service was to get all those Irish MPs over.

I have taken a great interest in the line for many years, and I represent a railway town that was and still is a major employer in the area. Today, after many years of investment, in particular over the past decade, we have fast and frequent trains. Now the Super Voyagers or Class 221 trains can do the run from Holyhead to Euston in three hours and 40 minutes. On top of that, there has been an increase in the number of trains to Chester, which has helped my constituents going along the north Wales coast or those going to Anglesey on other occasions. Although having to change at Chester is not always nice, it is better than standing in Euston for hours, which we had to do in the 1980s and early ’90s when trains were less frequent.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I take on board my hon. Friend’s point about Chester, but does he agree that still more needs to be done with the direct link to Wrexham, Gobowen and so forth? That was not put in the tender, but the current situation is unacceptable and, when we consider the Wrexham and Shropshire line, all the more urgent. Whether Virgin or FirstGroup, it needs to be addressed properly.

Elections (National Assembly for Wales)

Debate between Albert Owen and Susan Elan Jones

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman is really apportioning blame to the Boundary Commission. He and his party voted on strict criteria, which were then imposed on the Boundary Commission. First, they allowed exemptions in some areas, which means that the argument that the hon. Member for Aberconwy made about equalisation across the entire United Kingdom is a false one. Secondly, the Boundary Commission was given no room for manoeuvre, which is why we will end up with this Government doing away with a quarter of the seats in Wales.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a degree of nonsense in what certain Conservative Members are saying? It seems that they want fewer Conservative Members of Parliament in Wales as long as it does not affect their own seats. In his role as Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) has to sit silently, but he has described the changes as the death of parliamentary democracy in mid-Wales. Although he is not allowed to speak, he can nod—he is not even nodding this morning. Does my hon. Friend not agree that there is real inconsistency in what the Conservatives are arguing on this point?

[Albert Owen]

I have highlighted the inconsistencies of the Conservative party on these issues, but I now want to move to some of the important points that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen made in his opening remarks. I have dealt with the first point: there was no mandate for the change. There is no respect for the National Assembly as a body and for the First Minister as a leader of that body. That is absolutely clear from what has come out of this debate and from the way in which the matter is moving forward. As for the idea that there is dialogue among people through a Green Paper—the hon. Member for Aberconwy gave me the ammunition to go after this one—I have to say that not many people concentrate on a Green Paper. Many people concentrate on manifestos. That is the difference.

High-speed Rail

Debate between Albert Owen and Susan Elan Jones

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones]

There is work to be done in north Wales. We are talking about a link that would speed up the entire journey down here. The examples that I gave earlier show how it is much quicker to travel to parts of Europe than to parts of north Wales, which bears testimony to my argument.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

At present, many people travel by car to Manchester and hubs. As the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) said, if we get the high-speed rail network, there will be connectivity between Birmingham and various other cities, and north Wales. People from north Wales will travel by train, which will save the environment and save time.

[Susan Elan Jones]

I agree totally with my hon. Friend. When the north Wales main line is electrified, a small number of trains—one or two a day, for example—could be diverted off the main track at Crewe or another convenient point to travel along that track. A passenger would therefore be able to travel from continental Europe to Rhyl, Bangor or, indeed, my hon. Friend’s constituency. Of course, I would also argue for the inclusion of Wrexham directly. Wales, and north Wales in particular, is on the periphery of Europe, but a high-quality transport plan could bring us into real contention for business.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Albert Owen and Susan Elan Jones

Monday 1st November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones]

I have always enjoyed reading the hon. Lady’s works in the past, but this is about fact: the fact of the nation of Wales inside the United Kingdom.

[Albert Owen]

In the 1980s, Margaret Thatcher said as Prime Minister that there was no such thing as society. Are not this Tory coalition Government now suggesting that there is no such thing as community?

[Susan Elan Jones]

I agree with my hon. Friend. This Government are also saying that there is no such thing as Welsh society, and it is downright shameful to see Ministers from Wales on the Front Bench who are barely responding to the points being made.