Government Policies (Wales)

Debate between Albert Owen and Roger Williams

Wednesday 26th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans). He was right to defend the NHS in Wales, and he was right to mention a sad loss that was close to him. The wife of his predecessor, Lord Touhig, sadly lost her battle for life a couple of days ago. I am sure that the whole House will join me in sending our condolences to Lord Touhig and his family.

I agree with the Secretary of State about the need for the Government in Cardiff Bay and the Government here at Westminster to work together. It benefits our constituents when we do so. I have worked with this Government, with previous Labour Governments, and with coalition Governments in Cardiff Bay. I have seen marked improvements in my constituency since becoming a Member of Parliament. We have more connectivity—faster, more frequent trains—than we had when I was elected. That is due to investment in the whole railway network. The £9 billion west coast upgrade has benefited my constituents, because when capacity is increased on one side of Offa’s Dyke, the whole of Wales benefits. That is an economic fact in terms of transport.

As the Secretary of State knows, I have been lobbying for more mobile phone coverage in Wales, and I met representatives of the 3 network today. There are too many not spots. There will be improvements, but we must make it clear that the peripheral areas of the United Kingdom, and of Wales, should be treated on the same basis as other parts of Wales. However, there are good projects on the horizon. The Wylfa Newydd development and the new eco park and biomass plant will bring quality jobs to my area.

I welcome the drop in unemployment in my constituency. Before I became a Member of Parliament, I ran a centre for the unemployed. In the 1980s and 1990s, my constituency had the highest level of unemployment in Wales. It was twice the national average in Wales, and much higher than the average in the United Kingdom. I saw a great transformation between 1997 and 2007, but that was followed by the global financial crash, and the recovery has been shaky. Many of the jobs that have been created have been mini-jobs. Many countries, such as Germany, operate a policy of mini-job creation following recessions, but these jobs have involved relatively low pay, and a great many zero-hours contracts that pay below what we now class as the living wage. Many people are finding jobs, but they are under-employed. The economy needs a real stimulus.

The three words that the Prime Minister is frightened to utter in any economic debate are “value added tax”, because VAT is a regressive tax which he promised not to increase but increased at the first opportunity. It is having a huge impact on businesses in my constituency. It is having an impact on consumer spending, which is up by just 2% in my constituency, compared with an average of some 5% in Wales as a whole. Small businesses, whose representatives I meet regularly, have experienced a fall in turnover of some 6%, compared with an increase of 7% in the United Kingdom. Those issues are concerning businesses. According to anecdotal evidence, less secure part-time work and zero-hours contracts are replacing more secure full-time work.

[Roger Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Albert Owen]

I will give way briefly, although the hon. Gentleman’s colleague the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) was not so gracious to me.

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman hosted a wonderful Anglesey day when he was able to demonstrate the virtues of his constituency and the pleasures that could be gained from visiting it. Does he agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion that a reduction in VAT on tourist attractions and accommodation would be a wonderful thing for rural Wales as a whole?

[Albert Owen]

I do. When the last Government cut VAT temporarily, that boosted the economy, and it could do so again in sectors such as construction and tourism.

I want to talk about a section of society that is very important to us all: younger people. Younger people in Wales and my constituency are finding things extremely difficult because of the zero-hours contracts and because many of them who are self-employed, including members of my family and their friends, are becoming so not out of choice but because their main full-time job has gone. They are taking this step into self-employment, and they are finding it very difficult to get mortgages and to get credit. They are finding it really tough out there.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has produced a report on the increase in the young poor in our country. That is a serious issue that we need to tackle. I welcome the growth fund for young people in Wales, getting people into employment, but I want them to go into employment that pays a reasonable living wage so they can spend and contribute to our society in the way we all want.

The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) is not here, but he will know that a lot of my constituents work in Gwynedd, and Gwynedd has one of the highest rates of zero-hours contracts in Wales. The number is staggering: some 477 people are on zero-hours contracts. That is the figure for the neighbouring authority. I do not have the figures for my local authority, but some pay on Anglesey is below the living wage. Some adverts in Gwynedd are for pay of £5.87. There is a Plaid Cymru Member present. We hear that party attacking the Labour party and everybody else about the living wage and zero-hours contracts, yet although it only controls two councils in Wales, it has one of the worst records in that regard. These are my near neighbours—in fine fettle.

We want to stimulate the economy, and we can do it through a house building programme that boosts construction by giving companies relief on VAT, so they can build more houses and get more people into the workplace. That is one way forward.

We need greater investment in improved connectivity as well. We can do that by working together, as the Secretary of State said—but working together not just between Wales and the rest of the UK, but between Wales, the UK and Europe. The banging on about Europe that the Prime Minister talked about is having an effect. I know that the Secretary of State is going to my constituency, although I have not been told so officially by his office—the grapevine of Anglesey works much quicker. When he goes there, he will hear from business leaders that the threat of moving towards the exit is having an impact on future investment plans by large companies. I want to see an Anglesey—an Ynys Môn—that is at the heart of the British Isles, and that is a major player in Wales, in the UK and in Europe; the only way we will do that is by being far more positive, and helping our young people in a more positive way than now. I do not want to see the young poor carrying on as they are; I want to see young people with great opportunities for the future.

Fuel Poverty

Debate between Albert Owen and Roger Williams

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Roger Williams]

I thank my hon. Friend for picking me up on that. The green deal is indeed a very important part of the coalition’s policy. Figures show that more and more people are making use of green deal assessments. Indeed, some of the companies providing those assessments are not charging for them, but see that as an opportunity to suggest ways forward that will improve the environment of the house. As I understand it, though, some of the green deal finance is not taken up. Some of the green deal recommendations are put into practice without taking up the green deal finance.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. On the green deal, he is correct to say that the number of assessments is going up, but the Government’s targets have not quite been met. However, when the assessments have been done, the practical steps that are taken are to replace boilers, for example. Surely it would be more cost-effective to have a scrappage scheme and a boiler efficiency scheme, which would help people on grid and off grid.

[Roger Williams]

I understand that the hon. Gentleman has a real passion for this issue. We share that, as we represent rural areas. I am not quite sure how a scrappage scheme would fit into the green deal, but I am sure that he will enlighten me on that after the debate. I will come on to some of my concerns about the ECO—energy company obligation—scheme later.

On the rural situation—this is a caveat on the comments that I have just made—certain parts of the UK face significantly higher energy prices. Rural areas in particular are far less likely to be on the mains gas grid. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has found that although 10% of the houses in urban areas do not have a gas connection, that figure rises to 36% in rural areas. In villages, the figure rises to more than 50%, and for hamlets and isolated dwellings it is more than 60%. Those figures are for England in 2009, but they illustrate the point well, although I am sure that for some of the devolved nations they could be much higher.

Age UK says that household energy bills in rural areas are, on average, 27% higher than in urban areas. Without mains gas, people in such homes rely on more expensive forms of fuel such as heating oil, liquid petroleum gas, solid fuel or even electric heating. The extension of the gas grid would bring benefits to many such homes. The Government must also ensure that homes that rely on more expensive heating fuels are better insulated if people are to be able to afford energy bills in the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen]

Absolutely. The criteria should take rural areas into account, as well as peripheral areas of the UK, because they are the ones that are disadvantaged. Someone in a rural area of central Yorkshire, for example, could probably travel in all directions to get a better deal on their fuel. However, for someone in a peripheral area, such as the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), there is only one way to get their fuel.

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman and I are at one on this issue. I emphasise the importance of independent petrol retailers, without whom many rural areas would not be served. They also serve to keep the bigger suppliers and supermarkets honest: without the independents, we do not know what the supermarkets would charge.

[Albert Owen]

Absolutely. I ask the Minister to put pressure on the Treasury to reconsider the criteria for the fuel rebate, so that areas such as the periphery areas in west and north Wales and Northern Ireland can be given a fair chance. There is absolutely no doubt that people in those areas pay more for their fuel, as any cost comparison shows. That fly in the ointment—being 100 miles from a refinery—should be excluded from the criteria and the formula. I reiterate that I congratulate the Government on taking the initiative forward, because some areas of the UK will benefit.

I finish on the green deal, which I think everybody in the House welcomes. We welcome the focus of attention on alleviating fuel poverty and introducing energy efficiency measures. However, the green deal that has gone through the House and is now in place is a little cumbersome and expensive. It is well-intentioned, but the rates at which people would borrow money are too high. Again, there is a simpler solution.

I will try to answer the question asked by the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire about boiler replacement. The evidence that I am hearing—I am talking to many of the energy companies as well—is that most energy is lost through inefficient boilers, many of which are in older properties. They are placed in the living room, and most of the heat goes up the chimney. The boilers themselves are inefficient, so the heat goes out through the flues. A package is needed to help with boiler replacements, because modern boilers—condensing boilers, for example—are hugely energy-efficient.

We must remember that most households replace their boilers only after they break down. We are probably all guilty of that: “Oh, this inefficient boiler’s got another year left in it.” That is why the scrappage scheme under the last Government was so successful. People realised, “I might have a year or two to go on this one, but it’s well worth replacing it now.” We are finding—anecdotally, but I have read it on numerous occasions—that there is a pattern. Many people who want to use the green deal get the assessment, go through all the paperwork and find out that just replacing the boiler or the thermostat on the radiator does the job. That is why I think that we should have a reduced version of the green deal, so that people can get quick fixes, perhaps while raising revenues for exterior insulation, for example, for hard-to-heat homes.

There are some good examples in Wales of energy companies—yes, I pay tribute to the big six for this—giving free insulation for lofts, or giving pensioners additional insulation in their lofts and walls. That has been a huge success, but the green deal is missing a trick due to its cumbersome nature. Fuel poverty is hugely important, and I am pleased that it has come to the House. This is an important debate on an important issue. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire has outlined the issues in a measured way, and I know that the Minister will respond in an equally measured way.

It is in everybody’s interest that we reduce fuel poverty and the amount of carbon emissions. It is in everybody’s interest that we have energy-efficient homes and businesses. When we have this debate, we tend to exclude businesses. We need energy-efficient businesses. Members from all parts of the United Kingdom have businesses in their constituency that are concerned about their energy prices, and they do not get the deals that many individuals get that are easy to switch. It is difficult for small businesses as well. I am pleased to have taken part in this debate, and I hope that the Minister will consider some of the points made by the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire and me. The issue unites the House, and the House of Commons is at its best when united.

Food Banks

Debate between Albert Owen and Roger Williams

Wednesday 18th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams]

I have already written to a Minister and I am going to meet them to find out why the sanctions in different jobcentres have different criteria; why they have different systems for writing to and contacting people in order to encourage them to attend meetings; and why, if people do not attend those meetings, they get sanctioned.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Roger Williams]

No, I will not. I am terribly sorry. I would have, but I have almost run out of time. I have been very generous.

I think that this country needs a food policy. Huge spikes in food prices add to the difficulties faced by people trying to budget. We need a system to ensure that we have a secure supply of food with levelling prices.

This coming week I will meet the pastor of Elim church in Brecon and I hope we will be able to work with that church to set up our second food bank. I will do so with a heavy heart, but I know it will provide really good help for my constituents.

Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]

Debate between Albert Owen and Roger Williams

Monday 19th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

It is a genuine pleasure to follow the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on this issue. As many Members have rightly said, he has been a long and steadfast campaigner for a supermarket ombudsman—I will call it an ombudsman in my remarks, because I think that would have been the correct title.

I also pay tribute to Members of the previous Parliament who sponsored and helped me with my private Member’s Bill. The legislation that I put through Second Reading and Committee was supported by Members not only from the larger parties, but from some of the smaller parties and across the United Kingdom. Support came from the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland, and from the SNP, Plaid Cymru and Members from the larger parties. The Bill had cross-UK as well as cross-party support, which was important when taking it forward. I know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you took an interest in that Bill—I will refer to that shortly when you are not being disturbed. You may recall, however, that you actually sat on the Bill’s one Committee sitting. I do not know whether it was a record, but I managed to get that private Member’s Bill through in one Committee sitting with almost total agreement.

As right hon. and hon. Members will know, private Member’s Bills are an important vehicle and people become extremely popular when they are drawn in the top 10 in the ballot. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) will testify, one receives hundreds if not thousands of letters and e-mails—he has done it twice so he will speak from experience. People probably become more popular than if they go out to the jungles of Australia, so Members should persevere and get into the ballot for a private Member’s Bill if at all possible.

I welcome the Bill—it would be churlish not to, having promoted a private Member’s Bill the main tenets of which are still contained in the Bill under discussion. However, as the hon. Member for St Ives said, there was not a lot of enthusiasm for this measure when I successfully won that ballot. In fact, I was popular not just with outside organisations that wanted me to take legislation forward, but with those in the Whips Office who had a number of Bills they wanted me to promote. As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, I have never done anything the conventional way in this House—or, indeed, in my life—so I resisted the charm of the Whips Office at the time, and pursued this legislation because I thought it was the right thing to do. It brought together a broad coalition of farmers, suppliers, non-governmental organisations and many farming unions, and I pay tribute to the Farmers Union of Wales and the National Farmers Union in Scotland and England for their work. It has been difficult for any party to ignore this issue, and each of the larger parties put this legislation in their manifestos.

This Bill has been a long time coming. I remember gathering support from other parties when I was pursuing this legislation through Parliament, and there was a division in each party between spokespeople from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs who were keen for the Bill to proceed, and those from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills who were less keen to get it through—that is a nice way of putting it. When we were able to get all parties to concentrate their efforts on the Bill, they started to bid for who would take the legislation through Parliament the quickest once there was an election. I remember Conservative agriculture spokespersons of the time going to fairs, which all hon. Members go to in their constituencies, and saying that a supermarket ombudsman would be a priority for the next Conservative Government. I know they are in coalition, but I see no reason why the Bill was not introduced much sooner—all parties agree and there is a broad coalition of support.

The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, was a very good supporter of my private Member’s Bill and he is now a supporter of the Bill. If he were less conventional than he is, and if he, like me, was not a Minister, he would probably say, “I agree the Bill needs more teeth. I agree we need fines in the Bill.” He will not say that now—possibly for good reasons—but I see no good reason for not including fines in the Bill.

That is the argument I want to develop. Many groups have lobbied for fines to be included. Had the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), taken an intervention, I would have had the opportunity not only to congratulate her on her promotion and new post, but to ask her to come clean and name the individuals and groups who have lobbied against including fines. It would be difficult for her to name any apart from those inside the British Retail Consortium. It is wrong that the Government have capitulated—they have not struck the balance—and not included fines in the Bill.

I do not believe that naming and shaming will be an adequate deterrent, for the reasons that hon. Members have given. A fine would appear on a company’s financial accounts, to which shareholders’ and ordinary members’ attention is drawn at annual general meetings. The large supermarkets might still make large profits, but shareholders’ attention would be drawn to a fine on those accounts, even if it is insignificant compared with the profits. That would be enough for many of the shareholders to say, “We need to do things better, and to work with the adjudicator.” In that way, the supermarket would not just sit back and wonder whether the news that day would mean that they would be named and shamed in a newspaper headline, or a retail magazine, which not everybody reads. I should like to concentrate the Government’s mind on that—the suggestion comes not just from Opposition Front Benchers

Although my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) made a good, detailed speech on the measures in the Bill that the Opposition support, he also spoke about the differences between the Government and the Opposition. He did not do so for the sake of having differences, but so that we get the measures right at the first opportunity and legislate properly. We want a fair Bill, and we want an adjudicator, referee or ombudsman who has the tools from day one to do their job. They should not have to come cap in hand to Parliament for another measure.

The reserving of fines is nonsense. As the Minister said, they could take up to six months to set up, in which time there might be other priorities, as there have obviously been in the two and a half years when the Bill was not introduced, or there could be a lack of will on the Government’s part. The House has the opportunity to table an amendment in Committee. After the pressure of this debate, the Government may introduce a measure to give the adjudicator the ability to fine.

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman has a proud record. He condemns the Government for being slow to introduce the Bill, but does he agree that Governments are very often criticised for not having pre-legislative scrutiny? In this case, that has taken place, probably to the benefit of the Bill.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman is a supporter of pre-legislative scrutiny, but he does not believe it delays Bills for two and a half years. The Government have not had a heavy work load on Bills. If we compare the number of legislative days in the House with the number in other Parliaments, we see that the Government have had a lot of time to introduce the Bill. With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I want to move on to whether we should have a fine or naming and shaming.

The only difference between the Government and the Opposition is on whether we have adequate sanctions for the big 10 supermarkets. Has the Minister or the Government considered not only the big 10, but the major suppliers in the chain, which are as big as the supermarkets? Will the adjudicator have the ability to name and shame them? That is important. Some of the major suppliers are multinational organisations, and put a lot of pressure on our growers and farmers. Will the Minister respond on that? I would have pushed for such a measure in my private Member’s Bill, because I want fairness right through the supply chain, and not just among the top 10 supermarkets, which have the ability to self-finance the measure so that all are treated equally. The supermarkets should also have the ability to complain to the adjudicator or ombudsman. That is important if we are to have a fully open system of recourse through naming and shaming. The supermarkets should be able to put their side of the argument if the boot is on the other foot, although that would not happen often. I should like the Government to take that on board.

The measure has popular support, not just in the House, but in the country. As I have said, it has brought together non-governmental organisations, lobby groups, and farmers and growers throughout the UK, because there has been an injustice in how the grocery market has operated. The Government and the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire, who is the third to take up the role in less than three years, have an opportunity. Her predecessor but one, the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who is now Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, said only last week at the Dispatch Box that it was essential to use sanctions to fine energy companies, which are alleged to be ripping off their customers. We must have consistency. The same should apply to large supermarkets that are alleged to be ripping off suppliers and consumers—at the end of the day, consumers pay the higher prices that filter through.

Rather than naming and shaming, we need fines in the Bill, and a real commitment to fairness in the system. The Bill will help, and I support it, but I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will vote for including fines in the Bill rather than just make speeches about it. The eyes of the consensus that the Bill has gathered will be on us, and we should show that we speak with one voice. Although the Under- Secretary would not take an intervention from me, I will take one from her if she wants to say who has lobbied her and why we should not include fines in the Bill. She has tried to make the case, but she does not want to take the opportunity I am offering her. Many of the supermarkets I have spoken to would not be that bothered if fines were included in the Bill, which has also achieved consensus among all the bodies I have named. As the hon. Member for St Ives has said, two or three supermarkets have come out in favour of the Bill. It will not be long before there is consensus among the top 10 supermarkets.

Fuel Poverty

Debate between Albert Owen and Roger Williams

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

I will certainly bring the debate back to fuel poverty, because petrol is a fuel, people are in poverty and the VAT hike is compounding the problem of the increase in their daily household bills, because they have to pay extra fuel duty on top of paying extra money for the off-mains supply of gas. It is a big issue in my area; people who are already paying additional money for their fuel also have to pay extra for their travelling costs, and as a result their household budgets have been squeezed considerably. That is the point that I am making. It is a serious point about fuel poverty and not just a political point about the VAT rise, although in my opinion that rise could have been avoided. It was a political decision and on top of the duty escalator it has hurt periphery areas the hardest.

I support the Government in looking for a stabiliser mechanism, because the peaks and troughs in prices are too great. I want to see some stability in prices, so that we can hold household bills down. I also welcome the proposals for a freeze on duty when there is hardship. I lobbied for that for a long time, and we achieved limited success under the previous Government. However, we need some stability because of the volatility of the prices. I want to see some sort of stabiliser mechanism, and I also want to see periphery areas receiving some benefit from that mechanism, which is an issue that the Government propose to re-examine. The pilot schemes that the Government are talking about for diesel and petrol are limited to the Western Isles and to St Ives and other parts of Cornwall. I want to see a Welsh and Northern Irish dimension to that programme, to include periphery areas in those regions.

[Roger Williams]

West Wales.

[Albert Owen]

And west Wales. I am calling for that extension, because those of us in those periphery areas are paying so much extra for fuel. The argument that we hear about petrol and diesel delivery is the same one that off-grid providers use; they say that they pay an extra amount to deliver fuel to those periphery areas. I do not think that we should be paying that extra amount for fuel in periphery areas.

I hope that the Minister will take that point on board. I am supportive in principle of a stabilising mechanism, although I would like to see how it works in practice. I also want to see area rebates extended to Wales and Northern Ireland in addition to England and Scotland, because they will help to alleviate poverty.

The differences between us on this subject are small, although I do not agree with scrapping the Warm Front programme, which was a success. I am not sure about the details of the green deal, but I will support those measures that help to alleviate poverty. As I have said, it was wrong to raise the VAT on petrol and diesel, just as it was wrong of a previous Government to try to introduce VAT on domestic fuel. Governments can disinherit some of these measures. I hear the Government saying now that they have to go ahead with the fuel duty price rise because they inherited it. However, the previous Labour Government disinherited the plans to put additional VAT on domestic fuel, and we are all comfortable with that move now. It was wrong to propose such a rise, which is why we should re-examine VAT and fuel costings.

We need to have a proper regulatory system, and we need to bring Ofgem and the OFT together in a single body when it comes to off-grid supply. That point is important, and I hope that the Minister will take it seriously. I believe in the retention of the winter fuel payment, which is a universal benefit that helps to alleviate fuel poverty. I also want to see an extension to the gas mains, whereby we have a proper, clear way of moving forward and a mechanism that allows people to choose whether to connect to the gas mains.

I am conscious of the time, so I will leave it at that. We have a common endeavour here to alleviate poverty. I know that the Minister, as a member of the previous Energy and Climate Change Committee, is at one with me on that issue, and I look forward to hearing his responses to my points. Finally, I again thank my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn for securing this important debate.

Welsh Grand Committee (Scrutiny)

Debate between Albert Owen and Roger Williams

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Roger Williams]

That was a complicated set of statistics. The hon. Gentleman will have to allow me to accept that but not to comment on it. As far as I remember, we had regular Welsh Grand Committees in previous Parliaments, but I was never consulted on the subjects of them. I was dealt with courteously by Government Whips, who would tell me, “The Welsh Grand Committee will be on 23 May and the subject is this. Will that be all right?” On most occasions it was all right, but we were never engaged, or encouraged to put forward subjects for the Committee. I would like the support system for the Welsh Grand Committee to become more like the Backbench Business Committee. We could then have meetings of Back Benchers of all parties to put forward suggestions for subjects for the Welsh Grand Committee.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman is making an important point about the development of the Welsh Grand. Does he accept that there was some development in the previous Parliament? We had a question session at the beginning when we could speak on a wide range of topics; Back Benchers could submit questions and ask follow-up questions.

[Roger Williams]

I absolutely accept what the hon. Gentleman says. I am all for developing the system if it makes it more productive and gives Back Benchers a greater role, but the fact that we have had some development does not preclude or prevent other developments in future.