Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Monks(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Monks
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I just wonder how the assurer can help a union in a situation where there is very rapid labour turnover, lots of short-term contracts and great difficulty in keeping membership rolls up to date. What possible value can the assurer add to that situation, except to confuse it?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
It is certainly not to confuse, my Lords. As I explained, the role of the assurer is to provide that element of credibility which is not there at present. The assurer will also be working closely with the union and a contract will be drawn up with the union, notwithstanding the core powers that the assurer must have. That is why we believe this is necessary, in particular for the larger unions with 10,000 members and above.
The current statute does not provide an assurance of the union’s compliance as there is no sufficient enforcement mechanism. The Bill addresses this shortcoming by allowing the certification officer to investigate instances of possible non-compliance where there is good reason to do so. The certification officer will require access to the register and other relevant documents in order to determine whether a union is diligent in maintaining a register that is up to date so far as is reasonably practicable. The current system relies on individual members making formal complaints to the certification officer before he can investigate. As members can have no way of knowing the state of the register as a whole, the route for the certification officer to determine whether a union is compliant with its statutory obligations is not that effective to ensure that the existing duties are complied with. There may be a good reason for the certification officer to investigate a union’s compliance with the overarching duties even in the absence of a complaint including, for example, where a membership audit certificate has not been provided by the union or it is unsatisfactory.
We want to give members and the wider public an assurance that all unions are complying with their existing statutory duties. If the measure is applied only when the certification officer receives a complaint, we will not achieve this objective. Just because there are few formal complaints that we are aware of, it does not mean that there is no problem and this is an important point to make bearing in mind the comments that were made earlier by the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Monks. The access to and handling of union data is a concern that has occupied a great deal of time and debate. The Government understand the sensitivity of union membership data and agree with the importance of protecting them. However, for the reasons discussed at length previously, I reassure noble Lords that this amendment is unnecessary. Membership data will be well protected by both the existing and new legal safeguards. The assurer will owe a contractual duty of confidentiality to the union as set out in the Bill. The assurer, the certification officer and the inspector will be subject to the obligations of the Data Protection Act whenever they handle union membership data. Furthermore, the certification officer is obliged to act in accordance with the European Convention on Human Rights, which includes the individual’s right to privacy.
These two amendments between them would undermine the Government’s policy objective in Part 3 of the Bill. Amendment 29 would remove the independent scrutiny that is fundamental to the credibility of large unions’ annual reporting on duties. Amendment 30 would remove the provision for the certification officer to proactively investigate and assess a union’s compliance with Section 24 of TULRCA where there is good reason to believe that there may be an issue. For these reasons I cannot accept the amendments.
Just before I ask the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to withdraw his amendment, I want to respond to a question he put to me. He raised the important issue of who would be appointed to be an assurer. We have already said that we will consult on who will be eligible to be an assurer, and further to this consultation the Secretary of State will make an order setting out who is eligible. They are likely to be qualified professionals such as solicitors and lawyers, which was alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, auditors or independent scrutineers. This is similar to the system in place for independent scrutineers, and furthermore the unions will have discretion over whom to appoint from the list of eligible assurers and to remove them from the role on agreement with their members. Unions will be able to define the detailed terms of contract and their relationship with the assurer. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, Amendment 33A could delay commencement of the provisions in Part 3, as they would not come into effect until the certification officer knows that all trade unions with more than 10,000 members have changed their rules to provide for the appointment and removal of an assurer. I know that noble Lords have been concerned that unions should have sufficient time to prepare for these new arrangements. In particular, we have been told that many unions do not routinely have an opportunity to make rule changes—I think the noble Lord, Lord Monks, alluded to that earlier. I am happy to offer reassurance to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and other noble Lords that unions will have the time that they need. They will have at least 17 months to comply from the point at which the legislation takes effect, because the provisions will not apply retrospectively.
Unions will be required to submit a membership audit certificate alongside their annual return for the first full reporting year after the changes become law. The 17 months is the combination of the 12-month reporting period plus the five months that is allowed after that period to submit the annual return. The earliest that the provisions will take effect is October this year, which would depend on Parliament granting Royal Assent next month. That being the case, unions would have a minimum of 25 months from Royal Assent. In practice, many unions will have much longer.
Unions have different reporting years: many work on either a calendar or a financial year, which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, mentioned. Were the legislation to take effect in October 2014, a union with a calendar reporting year would first provide the membership audit certificate by the end of May 2016; for a union with a financial reporting year, it would be the end of August 2016. The noble Lord, Lord Monks, raised the issue of allowing unions sufficient time to meet the new requirement. I entirely sympathise with that and have said something about it just now. I have to confess that this is not the most straightforward of timetables to set out and I would be very happy to meet the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Monks, and any other noble Lords to clarify the timings and state why we think this would be sufficient for trade unions to make the transition. That reflects the discussions that we have had with the TUC and others.
I take this opportunity to warmly welcome the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and the experience that he brings on union matters, something I mentioned earlier in respect of the noble Lord, Lord Monks; it is only fair to acknowledge the experience that the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, has as well. I have had some discussions with him, at his request, on the question of whether the £10,000 threshold is set at the right level. Our primary objective is to supply assurance to union members, and to the wider public, about the existing statutory requirement to maintain an up-to-date register of members. The requirement to maintain a register applies to all unions, no matter what size. However, at the same time, the Government do not want to unnecessarily prohibit the creation of trade unions or undermine their ability to operate. We believe that it is possible for a union to be confident in the accuracy of all its records where its membership is small. We also believe that the wider public will think it reasonable that special provision is made for the smaller union and accept that where numbers are smaller it is reasonable to rely on the union’s own assessment.
Self-certification means a union officer assuring that every individual record is up to date, so far as is reasonably practicable. We think that this is achievable for unions with 10,000 members or fewer, but it becomes much more challenging where there are more members than that, which was part of the debate that we had earlier. The union official would have to be confident of the position and union members and the wider public would have to have trust that this was reasonable—a point, again, that I made earlier. By contrast, independent assurance focuses on whether the system in place for monitoring records is satisfactory, as opposed to making a statement about the accuracy of individual records. I therefore believe that this amendment is unnecessary and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw it.
Lord Monks
My Lords, it was a pleasure to hear the noble Lord, Lord Balfe. I welcome him to this House. It was a pleasure to hear him praising TASS, which, as its chosen acronym suggests, was not exactly aligned with the Conservative Party—nor, from time to time, with the Labour Party either. However, we all change and I am interested in what his views were when he was an active member of that union.
We appreciate the way in which the Minister responded on the timetable point. It will be useful to just see if we can tie this matter down in the next couple of weeks and see where the different positions that we hold meet, so that unions comply in a way which is sympathetic to the necessary costs and timetables. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Monks
Lord Monks
I thank the Minister for giving way. Is it not quite incredulous to use the cost in that way, breaking it down person by person in that way? We are talking about half a million pounds to be spent on a purpose which he believes gives confidence, assurance and so on but, if there is no real problem in the first place, the whole thing is built on a piece of tissue paper. That 6p becomes even more important to people like me. It is not so much that you have your tanks on our lawn, you have your hand in our pocket.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
These are the figures that I have presented, and it is fairly natural to break it down on a per-head basis. I would like to focus on costs. As set out in the impact assessment, I expect the cost to the public purse of implementing the provisions to be around £150,000. The additional responsibilities of the certification officer will mean hiring two to three extra staff members in his office. Some expenses may also be incurred if a complex investigation has to be undertaken, although it is likely that those investigations will be rare. We believe that the changes we are making are relatively modest. The new powers for the certification officer are largely consistent with activities that he undertakes at present. The Government have no plans to make wider changes to the role of the certification officer.
The noble Lord, Lord Monks, raised the issue of, as he put it, state intrusion into unions. That goes back to the first question that I answered for other noble Lords. The Data Protection Act will apply to the certification officer, his inspectors or assurers and they will be required to use any personal data, including data on union members, consistent with the protections that it contains. The Information Commissioner has powers to enforce the data protection principles and can impose substantial fines for some breaches. In addition, there are confidentiality obligations contained in the Bill so that an inspector or assurer can use or disclose information only if they do so consistently with the exercise of functions in relation to the membership register or criminal investigation or proceedings or where consent has been given.
I would like to address two further questions. The noble Lord, Lord Monks, raised the issue of a perceived breach of Articles 8 and 11 of the ECHR and the report of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, which I believe I have answered already. The Government have responded to the committee’s report, explaining that these do not breach rights to privacy or freedom of association. That is because there are legal safeguards in place already. The Data Protection Act will continue to apply and the Bill introduces new safeguards as well.
The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, challenged the length of consultation. Perhaps I may address this directly. BIS published a discussion paper which received 42 written responses from a range of groups, including trade unions, legal firms, businesses and charities. The Deputy Prime Minister, BIS Ministers and BIS officials have discussed the proposals with the TUC at various points throughout the progress of the Bill to date. The evidence base in the impact assessment is based on what unions have told us and we will continue to listen. The Minister for employment relations has already said in the other place that the Government will consult further on the role of the assurer; for example, we are committed to allowing unions flexibility in the implementation of these new measures while supporting a smooth transition. We are also committed, as I said earlier, to continuing to work with the RPC as well on the evidence base for the impact assessment.
I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment and beg to move that Clause 36 stand part of the Bill.
Lord Monks
My Lords, I am grateful to those who have taken part in what has been a wide-ranging debate, at least from this side of the House, which I suppose is only to be expected on this kind of subject. I ask fair-minded Members of the House, of which there are many on all sides, to consider this measure. The case for it is extremely flimsy. Are there not better things for the people from the department and the Minister to be doing? In a period of economic difficulty, the business department is messing about getting extra confidence and extra assurance about union membership records when, over many years, the complaints have been negligible. The existing requirements, which have been put in place during and since Mrs Thatcher’s time, have proved robust and effective. In a sense we are adding something on. As I mentioned before, it is almost like a rite of passage for every Conservative Minister in this place to have at least one kick at the trade union movement. I think that is very much what is happening now.
On this side of the House, we do not intend to press the amendments today but we are giving notice that, after a pause which will take place to enable Part 2 to catch up with Part 3, we will be making the point again on Report. It is an absolute waste of time.
Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Monks
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)
My Lords, it is not entirely clear why this amendment is being proposed. I imagine that there could be concerns in relation to vexatious allegations or allegations by an employer seeking to undermine a trade union’s ability to take industrial action. In practice, where an inspector conducts an investigation, there is no complainant or respondent with respect to that investigation. It is not clear why ACAS conciliation between a union under investigation and a potential witness would ever be appropriate in the context of an investigation to establish whether a union was in breach of its duties under Section 24. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Monks
I am well beyond the hat-trick stage of getting disappointing replies this evening. I think that an opportunity is being missed here. ACAS could help to smooth the introduction of these measures, and I am sorry that the Government are not a bit more interested in this subject. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
It is indeed. The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, raised the issue of post-legislative scrutiny, which is a fair point to make. It is good practice to evaluate the effect of legislation once it has had time to have an impact. We would expect to do this in due course so I hope that is some reassurance to the noble Lord.
The noble Lords, Lord Monks and Lord Stevenson, raised the issue of a revised impact assessment. I have already touched on the impact assessment in my earlier speech but I emphasise that the impact assessment that has been published is based on the quality of evidence we received. We will be seeking to improve it but to do so will need more data than have so far been provided. We will be working on this and will present a revised impact assessment before the legislation is commenced, which is what Amendment 156A seeks.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, raised the issue of having an opportunity to see the draft secondary legislation. The Government have already said that there will be consultation on the order to set out the eligibility criteria for the assurer. We will continue to engage unions and others as we develop the detailed implementation of the provisions to support a smooth transition.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, returned again to the issue of whether the Bill was intended to regulate the way in which unions choose to pay political levies. He mentioned that I had mentioned it once, maybe twice, before. Whether it was once or twice, I now emphasise it a third time to be absolutely clear over our position. There is nothing in Part 3 that is intended to change how unions do this. The Government’s intention is to provide greater assurance about the accuracy of membership registers. There is no wider intention and regulation of union political funds is a different part of the 1992 Act from that amended here. We have offered, as I said earlier, to assist the leader of the Opposition with his planned reforms if he wishes. I cannot be any clearer on re-emphasising this point. I ask the noble Lords to withdraw, or not to move, their amendments.
Lord Monks
My Lords, during the Minister’s reply, which I have to concede was a bit more interesting than some of his others, there were one or two chinks of light. There was something of interest in the timetabling and lead dates, although they are well short of where unions need to be to do this in an economical and sensible way. There is still quite a lot of pressure for some unions in particular to get these things done. The view on our side, which has been consistently expressed, is that this is a remedy that is looking for a problem to solve. There is no requirement for it. As the impact assessment says, there is nil effect and nil impact. For a Bill that is so marginal to anything important, it is extremely disappointing to see a department that is committed to economic growth and stirring the British economy to a higher level of performance wasting time addressing a non-problem. We thought the suggestions from this side, about giving us plenty of time to make adjustments and explain it to people, deserved a better fate than the one that you have just given us.
I welcome the BIS talks with the TUC. I hope that the Minister will be in listening mode during those talks. I also welcome that some adjustments have already been made as a result of those talks, and what the Minister said about there being nothing in this Bill that will affect political funds.
I hope the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is not too disappointed because I thought he had rather ambitious hopes for the Bill as the first step towards a new settlement on party funding. I do not think that it is; I do not think that it is that significant. Otherwise, these Benches and his Benches would be absolutely full.
As the Minister says, I am sure that we shall return to the issue about commencement dates at the next opportunity and I now withdraw the amendment.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Monks
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I am not sure I entirely understand where the noble Lord is coming from. If a jobseeker is seeking a job there are various options for him or her to look at in terms of roles, and the employee shareholder role will be treated equally alongside any other option. The only difference is that there will be absolutely no detriment to that individual if they apply for an employee shareholder role, and if they decide to turn it down. On the matter of guidance, I clarify that it remains in draft form. If this is an issue concerning the way that the guidance is written up, I am more than happy to listen to the noble Lord if he has any comments to make.
Lord Monks
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Is he therefore confirming in that reply that it will be possible for an employer to advertise employee shareholder contracts only? Is that what the Minister is confirming?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The answer is that if an employer wants to recruit an employee shareholder, he or she will decide how to advertise for that. They may decide not to advertise. They have a range of options which include advertising nationally. They may choose to send the advertisement into a jobcentre locally or to spread it nationally. That remains open just as it is if they want to recruit for any other position.
Lord Monks
My apologies for coming in again. What is voluntary about that for the jobseeker in those circumstances—the applicant for the job in an area of the country where there may not be many jobs and that is the only status available?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
It remains the case that an employee looking for a position can decide for himself or herself whether to accept an employee shareholder role. It is a separate status compared to other statuses. There is no difference in terms of them deciding themselves whether they want to accept or turn down that particular role.
Employers and individuals are free to agree to the type of contract that is suitable for the job. We are not moving away from this principle; rather, we are enhancing it by offering a further option which will be right for some, but as I have made clear in previous debates, not right for all. There are already three established employment statuses in the labour market, all of which have different rights associated with them. The employee status has wide-ranging rights, including unfair dismissal, statutory redundancy pay, TUPE, maternity leave and pay, and adoption leave and pay, to name a few. The worker status has none of these rights. However, both employees and workers have a right to the national minimum wage, paid annual leave, a right not to be discriminated against, and rest breaks.
There is a further option for people seeking work. They may wish to become self-employed. If someone chooses to be self-employed, they must accept that they have very limited employment rights, such as the right not to be discriminated against. This clause offers both employers and individuals a further option: employee shareholder. This is likely to be a long-term relationship. I would not expect anyone to enter into an employee shareholder contract without carefully considering the implications. This new employment status, with share ownership and favourable tax treatment, will provide small growing companies with a new option to attract high-calibre candidates.