Employment: Zero-hour Contracts
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I believe that I have already given that reassurance and some examples to the House.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, perhaps we can come back to the issue raised about care workers. It is widely reported that thousands of care workers are employed under zero-based contracts—often, as my noble friend Lord Christopher said, delivering care visits of no more than 15 minutes while not being paid for transport or time costs between visits to different care settings. Much of that arises from the commissioning policies of local authorities. Is the Minister as surprised as I was that two days ago, the Government tabled an amendment to the Care Bill which stopped the Care Quality Commission from investigating the commissioning duties of local authorities in relation to care homes?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
There is opaqueness between the zero-hours contracts and the payment of travel time relating to care workers. The noble Lord brings up an important point. I have already said how much importance we attach to the care sector. As the noble Lord will know, the payment for time spent on travelling is complex. I do not wish to go into the Care Bill at this stage.
Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, this has been an interesting and lively debate. I am very grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions.
I turn to some of the points raised by noble Lords during this debate. First, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, raised the issue of the impact assessment, and the noble Lord, Lord Curry, referred to this as well. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, pointed out that the Government’s best estimate is a cost to the rural workers of £236 million over the next decade. Abolishing the Agricultural Wages Board would bring agriculture into line with all other sectors in the economy. Allowing farmers to compete fairly in the labour market and allowing agricultural wages to follow market levels will enhance the competitiveness of the sector and may increase employment. This would in turn encourage long-term prosperity in rural areas.
The impact assessment itself gives a range of impacts and makes it clear that there is considerable uncertainty, with a potential £238 million impact for workers being at the upper end of the range. The impact assessment also makes clear that there may be, in fact, no reduction in wages or worker benefits. I would like to give a little more information than was asked for in terms of how we arrived at these figures. I stress that the figures are the upper estimate, based on empirical research comparing wages in fisheries and the agricultural sector over an 11-year period up to 2010. The figures are based on two particular issues. First they are based on existing workers. With the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board, one assumes that existing workers on contracts would not receive a pay rise over 10 years. Therefore there would be a definition of wage slippage, allowing for inflation. Secondly, it allows for new workers who may be taken on at the national minimum wage rate, not the old agricultural wages rate, if the Agricultural Wages Board was abolished. So it assumes the very worst scenario, with no increase at all on what there was before, and it assumes, in effect, that farmers would be sitting on their hands. I would argue that this would be highly unrealistic.
As I mentioned earlier, the reality on wages will depend on demand, and evidence shows that demand is increasing. Farmers will want to be more flexible and will be able to be more flexible with the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
What impact has the Minister’s department assessed there will be as a result of supermarkets forcing down costs on farmers, and what will be the impact of that on wages?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I am glad that the noble Lord has brought up this point because I was about to move on to the issue of supermarkets which was raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford and, indeed, by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. From our perspective, we do not have any evidence at all that supermarkets—some names were mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty—would put pressure on farm workers’ wages.
Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I have to say that it was news to me—I have heard it today for the first time—that there was one week’s consultation. It is my clear indication that it was not one week. It was a lot longer than that. I do hope that it was at least four weeks, but I will certainly get back to the noble Lord to clarify this, as it is important.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in expressing concerns about the consultation responses, also stated that he wanted clarification. On the question of where the consultation responses are, all the responses are publicly available in the Defra library. Moreover, Defra officials specifically alerted the former Unite leader to the availability of the responses.
On the content of the responses, it is worth pointing out to noble Lords that there were 939 respondees, of which 345—37%—agreed with the proposal to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board; some 575—61%—were against, and 2% were “don’t knows”. The main point I want to make is that of the 575 against, 242 came from the same website.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
With the greatest respect, I imagine that some of those people represented about 157,000 workers, so it seems to me that that is not at all unreasonable.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
If the noble Lord prefers, I can get back to him—I will, indeed, get back to him—with more details concerning this response. I was purely expressing some facts concerning the response.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
With respect, it is not unusual for organisations to send notes to their members detailing changes that are going to be made and their implications. The noble Viscount seems to be saying that because these figures came through websites—I think he mentioned five websites—somehow they should be discounted. Surely that cannot be right. Is the Government’s new approach to consultation to make judgments about who they are going to listen to and to discount those responses that they do not like?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
With respect to the noble Lord, I did not say that I was discounting them. I was just producing some facts. However, it is strange that such a high number of responses came from the same website. I hope that that is a reasonable view to express. As I say, I shall be delighted to get back to the noble Lord with some clear figures and a response to that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, raised the question of whether Northern Ireland or Scotland had been asked for a view on the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. I should clarify that the Agricultural Wages Board in Northern Ireland and the Agricultural Wages Board in Scotland constitute separate bodies and it is for their respective devolved Governments to take a view on their future.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked about the terms and conditions of farmers and their pay and sick pay under the current regime. Having two systems which may apply on the same site for the same organisation is not ideal. This measure obviously covers agricultural workers and will cover others who fall into the non-agricultural sector. Surely it is more confusing and difficult to operate such a system. As I said in my opening speech, farm businesses are increasingly diverse and carry out non-agricultural activities.
The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, asked why there was a difference between the first and second impact assessments. The first impact assessment was informed by independent research which compared the agricultural sector with the forestry and fisheries sector in order to assess the effect of the Agricultural Wages Board minimum wages. However, this did not allow for the fact that forestry is covered by an agricultural wages order. Since the consultation, the contractors have revised the analysis to correct this.