Department for Work and Pensions: AI

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I will need to write to the noble Lord with those specific figures.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

The Minister has said repeatedly that he wants the public to have trust in the use of AI in the system. Can he therefore tell us what proportion of cases where AI has been used are subsequently checked by a human? Will he publish the results of that analysis to show whether the AI decisions are the same as human decisions, or perhaps better, or worse?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I can give the noble Lord some reassurance on the processes that we have in place. AI is an evolving, iterative process and it is important to highlight the fact that we have a test- and-learn approach. We must proceed with extreme caution in what we are doing. Test-and-learn means that we need to get to a point where we are assured that this will work and that nobody will be affected detrimentally. Then we can accelerate our programmes.

Transport for London: Funding

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Thursday 23rd June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point; supporting TfL and the staff that work so hard for it is important. I say again that we remain committed to supporting London’s transport system, but only on the basis that TfL is returned to a position of financial sustainability in the interests of the UK taxpayer. We are giving some help, but it is important that outdated methods of working are closely looked at. My noble friend is right that trust is the main mantra.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not a fact that it is the Government who have been playing political games with TfL’s budget, as they do in so many other areas? They are playing games by drip-feeding resources and not engaging in good faith in the negotiations that they say they want. When will the Government stop that and instead provide the necessary funding to deliver the transformation that the mayor, this House and all the passengers in London look for?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I totally take issue with the noble Lord; what he said is simply not true. As I said earlier, this is a matter for the mayor and Transport for London, and we have been helping where we can. I say again that the matter is linked to financial sustainability and TfL moving towards updating outdated issues—driverless trains and other matters are being looked at.

Coronavirus Grants: Fraud

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Tuesday 25th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

That is certainly one of the lessons learned; I know that it is on the agenda to be looked at.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, what is the point of designating a Minister as Minister for Fraud Prevention and then not listening to his advice? If you were the Chancellor of the Exchequer, surely you would want to listen to that advice and take some account of it.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The House will have heard the question from the noble Lord, and I shall take it back.

Homelessness

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Thursday 23rd January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My noble friend makes a good point that these are highly complex issues which can take time to work through. That is why we have all these initiatives. The rough sleepers strategy is set around three core pillars: preventing rough sleeping before it happens, intervening at crisis points, and helping people to recover with flexible support that meets their needs. We are working ever more closely with the Department of Health and Social Care on these important issues, because a lot of them are health- related, including drug misuse.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount has come nowhere near to answering the question posed by my noble friend Lord Kennedy. Could he tell us why the position on people sleeping rough in this country has got so palpably worse in the last decade? What measures did the Government take or fail to take during that period which now need to be reversed if any progress is to be made?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I hope I have set out to the House the actions that we are taking. There are a variety of reasons why people sleep rough. We know what they are and we need to address them one by one; there is no one simple solution to this. For example, some people become homeless as a result of friends or family no longer being willing or able to accommodate them. There are domestic rows and the termination of assured short-term tenancies. There are lots of reasons, but the main point is that action is being taken to address all these complex problems.

Grenfell Tower Inquiry: Phase 1 Report

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Thursday 31st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Yes, I can reassure the noble Baroness on that front and reiterate the point I made earlier about greater joined-up thinking across different agencies and bodies.

Learning from the inspectorate’s reports and the creation of national standards based on the best operational practice will help the LFB and the fire and rescue service as a whole to respond to the issues that the inquiry identified. We expect the NFCC to support services faced with challenging reports to drive improvement and make sure that cross-service learning is happening, which helps to answer the noble Baroness’s question.  

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and my noble friend Lord Bourne asked about collaboration and co-ordination, and communication within the emergency services. An assurance programme was conducted in 2017 on joint interoperability with more than 100 police, fire and ambulance services. Findings showed that new processes are embedding, and the Home Office is continuing to drive work to embed this programme locally.

The noble Lord, Lord Harris, and others raised the issue of problems with communication between firefighters. Each fire and rescue authority, including the London Fire Brigade, must evaluate local risks and determine its priorities, policies and standards for fire protection and response, including equipment. It does this through an integrated risk management plan. It is for the Mayor of London to set the budget for the London Fire Brigade so that it has the equipment needed to do its work. The Government will work with the fire and rescue services to ensure that lessons are learned from this terrible tragedy.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

To make it clear, my point about emergency alert communications was not a matter for individual fire brigades or for the Mayor of London. It is a more general one about the Cabinet Office and other government departments agreeing a system and ensuring that it is available for all emergency services.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I take note of the noble Lord’s point and will feed that back.

I realise that my time is running out, but on this very important subject I want to spend a couple of minutes on some final remarks. I want to reflect on the work of the Government in and around the Grenfell community. Rehousing the 201 households that lost their homes has been an absolute priority for the Government. Today, 95% of these households have now moved into their new permanent homes and, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham alluded to, they must truly be places that they can call home.

We will continue to support the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Council to ensure that the nine remaining households can move into permanent homes, and that those affected continue to have access to the services and support they need to rebuild their lives. But of course, there is much more to do to restore trust in that community and, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham said, bringing different faiths together to help with this is of paramount importance.

We are committed to ensuring that government support remains in place for the bereaved and survivors for the long term. This is reflected in the Grenfell Tower Memorial Commission, which is made up of representatives of the bereaved, survivors and local residents. While the Government have taken ownership of the site of the tower, it is for the community to determine the most fitting and appropriate way to remember those who lost their lives.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham spoke about his concern about the neglect of humanity. Let us never forget that this tragedy is about human beings: human beings who lost their lives, human beings who survived and human beings who keep fighting for the truth and justice they so rightly seek, but now it is also about human beings who are taking—and must continue to take—responsibility and bring about the changes we need to see. No report can change what happened that night or bring back those who lost their lives, but yesterday’s report is an important step on the road to lasting change, and we must work tirelessly and without delay to ensure that we achieve it, so that when we say “Never again” we really mean it.

School Census: Pupils’ Nationality

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Wednesday 12th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I can reassure the noble Lord that the information is not given to the Home Office. There has been some mischief in the press about this, but I reassure the House that the information is kept within the Department for Education and is not passed on to the Home Office.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister give an absolute assurance that it is not obligatory for a school to fill in this question, and that no sanction will be applied to a school which fails to do so, or to a parent who does not answer?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That is absolutely correct. The guidance is very clear on that. If, for example, a school wishes to send information to the DfE and parents do not agree for that particular child, it does not get sent.

Social Housing

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Wednesday 27th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. Again, that is part of our overall plan. We are spending £20 billion altogether to deliver 1 million more homes: that is the largest programme by any Government. In terms of focusing on affordable housing, £1.6 billion is being put towards 100,000 homes at affordable and intermediate rents, and London is very much part of that programme.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister then tell us what an affordable rent in London is, in his view?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Well, we will be delivering 90,000 affordable home starts in London by 2021, and 20 housing zones have been designated. It is important that we deliver on those.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, given that the Government Chief Whip has not yet arrived in the Chamber to explain what the intention is—although we may be about to get a message from him—to expedite matters, in order to see exactly what the Government’s intentions are, I beg to move that the House do now resume.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I argue that the House should not resume. Discussions are ongoing with the Chief Whip as we speak. I suggest to the House that we continue. The Chief Whip will come into the Chamber as soon as he is able to update us on progress on the Bill.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

On the basis of that assurance that the Government Chief Whip will be joining us in about 10 minutes, I will not press my Motion to a vote at this stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, the Government Chief Whip briefly appeared in the Chamber. I now see that the Leader and Deputy Leader of the House are here. I am minded to move that the House do now resume, unless we are about to get a Statement.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Harris, continues, for the benefit of the House I should like to inform your Lordships that the Chief Whip will be making a brief Statement at 7 pm on the subject of the progress of the Bill.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I am sure that this will be helpful. It is clearly progress and we all want to get on with this. But it would be useful for the House to know what the intention of the Government is as far as the progress of this Bill is concerned. So, unless we are going to be given more information, I will again put a Motion that the House do now resume.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

It may be helpful for the noble Lord to know that is has been agreed with the usual channels to have the Statement at 7 pm.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, I am sure that that is the case, but I am not a member of the usual channels. There are Members sitting in this Committee who are interested in this Bill or in particular clauses or aspects of it. We have a right to know the intention in terms of the remaining groups on this Bill. That is why I therefore move that the House do now resume.

Consumer Protection

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Monday 11th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The Dormant Bank and Building Societies Accounts Act was passed in November 2008 and included a requirement for the Government to undertake a review. The legislation set out the specific questions that the review should cover: for example, how many banks and building societies have transferred balances; how much money has been transferred and how promptly; and how effective the arrangements have been for meeting claims. HM Treasury is currently undertaking the review. The closing date was 21 October, and the report will be laid before Parliament by March 2014.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of the National Trading Standards Board. The Minister’s department is currently consulting on a new piece of consumer legislation. Will he tell us why it is in the interest of consumers that this legislation will require that two days’ notice is given before potential rogue traders are inspected by trading standards officers? Why is it in the interest of consumers for potential scammers—importers of counterfeit or unsafe goods—to have two days in which to destroy the material and the records that might otherwise incriminate them?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, the powers strike a balance between protecting civil liberties and reducing burdens on business and enabling enforcers to tackle rogue traders. Requiring enforcers to give 48 hours’ notice before carrying out routine inspections will benefit businesses by making it more convenient for them to accommodate these inspections. However, notice need not be given, for example, where it would defeat the purpose of the visit, as when a breach is suspected, such as with counterfeit DVDs.

Supermarkets: Pricing

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Monday 14th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My noble friend makes an interesting point and it is firmly noted.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, given the very rapid rise in food prices in this country, which is double the rate in Germany and France, can the noble Viscount comment on the fine of £300,000 imposed on Tesco for not properly declaring or misrepresenting a cut in price it claimed that it had made? Are the Government putting enough resources into the consumer protection world to make sure that consumers are protected against unfair offers of that sort? I declare an interest as chair of the National Trading Standards Board.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I can reassure the noble Lord that we take enforcement very seriously. As the noble Lord will be aware, enforcement of the legislation is undertaken by the Office of Fair Trading and trading standards boards. If there is an issue, the first thing that complainants should do is go to trading standards. I am also extremely aware of the major supermarket that was prosecuted for giving a misleading price on strawberries.

BBC: Resignation of Director-General

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I would not wish to comment on any particular candidate. I presume that the noble Lord was referring to the search process that the chairman of the trust has said that he would carry out. I am not able to comment on that particular process at the moment. That is a matter, indeed, for the BBC.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate has rightly reminded the House that the people we should be most concerned about in all this are those who were the victims of abuse. Can the Minister comment on whether the Government feel that the frenzy around the existential crisis of the BBC is not really a distraction from concerns that there was very real abuse in children’s homes in north Wales and elsewhere; that there was an individual who, because of his celebrity, was able to abuse children all over the country; and that we are in danger of being deflected, which of course plays into the hands of those who would rather cover up what happened and the names of those who were ultimately responsible?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord makes a very important point—that we must not lose sight of the awful events that have taken place and of why the BBC is in the position it is in at the moment. However, given a bit of calm and stability the immediate issues will, one hopes, blow over, and those who are now taking the right decisions will make those decisions and follow them through. I am sure that there will be a number of days of continued press reports but I absolutely take the noble Lord’s point that we must not forget the real issue behind these terrible reports.

Online Safety Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Harris of Haringey

Friday 9th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I think that I can answer the noble Lord’s questions later in my speech when I come on to the responsibilities of the industry and others.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, raised an important point. The Minister is saying that so much of the responsibility for this must rest with parents, but all the data that we have tell us that parents are ill equipped to provide this leadership. They are behind their children in terms of understanding these technologies. Parents are simply not in a position to give that guidance, much as we all might like that to be the case.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I fully understand the point that the noble Lord is making, but we take the line that ultimately parents are at the forefront of making the decisions as to what is right or wrong for their children.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I can give the briefest of answers in the time available on age verification. It is an important issue. However, I would make a distinction between age verification in terms of the gambling sites, which the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, mentioned. My understanding is that with gambling sites there is a clear distinction at the age of 18. Material for the over-18s is pin-protected. Taking our view that parents would in effect be in control, parents would want to set a range of controls appropriate for their children, which may be different for a five year-old and a 15 year-old.

I started by thanking the noble Baroness for giving us the opportunity to debate these issues today and I close by doing the same.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I am sorry because I realise the Minister is trying to close his remarks. But I am trying to understand the answer that he has just given my noble friend. Is he in essence saying that the Government are disregarding the recommendations from those two reports because the age verification used for gambling sites kicks in only at 18? The point is that they are saying that age verification is an important mechanism. We have the evidence from the gambling sites that age verification is possible and can work. Why is it not possible to put the two things together and introduce age verification structures that may kick in at younger ages?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I note the noble Lord’s comment but the issue of age verification is more complicated than at first it appears. We need more time to discuss this. The best thing for me to do is to get back to the noble Lord and other noble Lords who have raised this particular issue with some answers.

Technology changes rapidly and legislation does not. Industry is better placed than legislators to design the simple and effective tools that parents want, keeping pace with technology and the way that their children access the internet. But there is a role for government in setting an expectation, bringing the right people together and always pushing for more and better—

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I can reassure the noble Lord that it is in their interests to bring themselves up to scratch in order to be able to produce online safety for children. I know that this will not be a satisfactory answer for him, but our view is that it is the responsibility of parents, ultimately, to take this forward.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, why does the Minister say that it is in the interests of online suppliers to do this? It costs them money, they are in a highly competitive market and I suspect that a large number of them make money on the basis that they know perfectly well what some of their users want to access online and they simply want to increase the number of users. Why is it in their interests to introduce this without some form of regulation in the background?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

We are getting into quite a detailed discussion. My best response is that I look forward to discussing these issues in more depth in Committee.

In conclusion, the Government will continue to ensure that everyone is playing their part in keeping our children safe online.