Chinese Products and Companies: Human Rights Violations

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 20th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important and, indeed, a moral point. The UK launched the global human rights sanctions regime in July last year, giving us the power to address the very worst human rights violations across the world. We have already used that regime to place sanctions on more than 70 individuals and entities around the world. The noble Lord will know that this, for the first time, includes assets that are frozen and travel bans on four Chinese government officials.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, according to the latest ITUC Global Rights Index, the UK now has trade deals with dozens of countries with the worst track records in the world for exploiting workers. During debates on the Trade Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, argued forcibly against my amendment and that of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, because the FCDO’s Human Rights and Democracy report

“touches on many relevant issues”,

and would be

“enhanced in further reports.”—[Official Report, 23/3/21; col. 766.]

When I read the report that was recently published, it is clear that no enhancement has been made. Trade agreement is not even mentioned once. Can the Minister explain what has happened? Why have not the Government kept their word?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We have taken a lot of action in this respect, and at the UN Human Rights Council in February 2021 the Foreign Secretary called on China to allow the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights or another independent expert urgent and unfettered access to Xinjiang. More countries than ever are speaking out about Xinjiang; China has already been forced through our actions to change its narrative about camps, and its denial of these violations is increasingly hard for it to sustain. We believe that the actions that we are taking are having effect, but it is not, of course, always a fast process.

Trade Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Collins of Highbury

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Monday 7th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I will not detain the House for too long because I made my comments in the previous debate about my support and that of the Opposition for this amendment. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and particularly my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws for their interventions.

I will single out two contributions. One is that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, who has presented us with very clear arguments about why this argument should go to the Commons and why the Commons should consider it. The other is that of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because he is right: we have to respond to the government mantra that we have heard so many times: “It has to go to a competent court”. If that is the response, then, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, let the Commons decide. That is what this House can do tonight.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, we have had a very long debate, and it is now my job to address the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alton.

I have listened very carefully to the speech of the noble Lord, and noted that he has raised the subject of genocide—a heinous crime—more than 300 times, which is remarkable. I applaud his persistence and I wish that I could be the Minister to provide an answer—perhaps the 301st—that gives the necessary satisfaction to him, and to other distinguished noble Lords who have taken part in this very interesting debate. There have been some very moving and passionate speeches and we have had quotes from around the houses, ranging from Robbie Burns to—I should mention this—the very great, late Lord Sacks.

I do not advocate repeating the points made so eloquently by my noble friend Lord Grimstone in a previous group, so my remarks—I hope that the House will forgive me—are necessarily short. I will, however, quickly re-emphasise that the Government share wholeheartedly the concerns underpinning this amendment. My noble friend Lord Cormack referred to global Britain, as did a number of other Peers. The UK has also long supported the promotion of our values globally, and remains committed to its international obligations. We are clear that more trade does not have to come at the expense of human rights. This includes clauses in our trade agreements with many developing and emerging markets: suspensive powers in our trade preferences regime and recourse to trade levers through our sanctions policy.

The UK has played a leading international role in holding China to account for abuses, in particular those reported as taking place against the Uighur Muslims—which, again, was a theme during the debate this evening. We have led joint statements at the UN’s human rights bodies and underlined our concern directly to the Chinese authorities at senior levels. We have also repeatedly urged businesses that are involved in investing in Xinjiang or which have parts of their supply chain in the region, to conduct appropriate due diligence to satisfy themselves that their activities do not support any human rights violations or abuses. We have reinforced this message through engagement with businesses, industry groups and other stakeholders. Under the Modern Slavery Act the UK became the first country in the world to require businesses to report on how they are tackling modern slavery in their operations and supply chains.

This amendment seeks to give the High Court of England and Wales powers to revoke trade agreements where the court holds that another signatory to the relevant agreement has committed genocide. I was grateful to my noble friend Lord Lansley, who not only alluded to this in the last group but—as I know, though I came in slightly late—in this group too. He made some very helpful and interesting points. I listened carefully to all the speeches but, despite the very strong arguments that were presented by the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy and Lady Smith, and a few other noble Lords, the Government have serious concerns about this approach, some of which were touched on in the previous groups, as my noble friend Lord Grimstone iterated most strongly in his remarks.

The key point is that this would strike at the heart of the separation of powers in Britain’s constitutional system, allowing the High Court to frustrate trade agreements entered into by the Government and ratified after parliamentary scrutiny. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, raised a point about the separation of powers and the role of the courts. The Government’s position has consistently been that only a competent court should make determinations of genocide, and this does not entail the courts having the power to revoke trade agreements. State genocide is very difficult to prove in the judicial context—the evidential threshold is very high, and proceedings tend to be long and costly but the amendment would make it simple to bring vexatious allegations of genocide to the court as a means of putting political and international pressure on the Government.

Perhaps I may take up a point raised, in part, by my noble friend Lord Cormack. I remind the House, a bit like a long-playing record, that the Bill focuses on continuity agreements, but I would like to say a word about our approach to free trade agreements. We do not see a choice between securing growth and investment for the UK and supporting human rights. Our experience is that political freedom and the rule of law are vital underpinnings for both prosperity and stability, and that by having a strong economic relationship with partners, we are able to have open discussions on a range of very difficult issues, including human rights. Despite our varying approach to agreements with partners, we will always have open discussions on a range of issues, including human rights.

As my noble friend Lord Grimstone said earlier, we have provided extensive information to Parliament on our negotiations, including publishing our objectives and economic scoping assessments prior to negotiations beginning. We continue to engage closely with the relevant scrutiny committees—namely, the International Trade Committee in the House of Commons and the International Agreements Sub-Committee in the House of Lords.

Just before I conclude, I want to say something about China, because many references were made to that country. I say at the outset—as noble Lords would expect me to say—that China is an important economic partner for the UK. UK/China trade is currently worth approximately £76 billion. China is our fourth-largest trading partner, the sixth-largest export market and the third-largest import market. Currently, we have no plans to commence free trade agreement negotiations with China. Having recently concluded an agreement with Japan, our current priorities, as my noble friend Lord Grimstone has said on many occasions, are the US, Australia and New Zealand, as economies more similar to our own. Looking ahead—again, as my noble friend has said—we are committed to seeking accession to the CPTPP.

I do not want to delay the House any longer and the hour is late. In the light of the legal difficulties and unintended consequences, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Representation of the People (Electronic Communications and Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2020

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 23rd March 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and all those involved for a very thorough and helpful briefing about these regulations, which I think should not attract any great controversy. It has often been said in the Chamber by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, that we run our elections in an analogue fashion in a digital era, so these regulations are catching up. The changes being made are environmentally friendly, a sensible modernisation and a more efficient and cheaper way of conducting the democratic processes, but I have a number of questions for the Minister.

First, if we are running something that is cheaper and more efficient and that saves resources, will at least some of those resources in Northern Ireland be engaged in a process of encouraging registration, particularly among the groups which tend to be under-registered? It seems to me that where you make a saving in the registration process, you should invest at least some of it—I suggest a high proportion of it—in trying to make sure that everybody who should legally be on the register is included on the register.

Secondly, digital registration numbers are new to our electoral registration system but I assume that, as they are in the regulations, the Government have no fundamental objection to the principle of digital registration numbers. I would be grateful for confirmation of that, because extending the principle of having digital registration numbers could benefit the system very greatly in a number of ways.

First, when people are not sure whether they are on the electoral registration system, they often apply again, wasting the time of electoral registration officers. They are unsure whether to spend time filling in the form online again. If they had a digital registration number, it would be much easier for them to check online whether they are already registered. It would save them and office staff time in completing the registration process.

Secondly, a digital registration number would be helpful in checking whether there is a problem or an offence in double voting inappropriately in the same election. Many people in this country, quite legitimately, are on the electoral register in two different places. They can vote in different council elections, but should vote once only in a parliamentary election. It is potentially too easy for someone to vote in two places in a general election. Allegations fly around about whether perhaps student or second-home owners are doing this. If there were a national digital registration number, it would be possible for bodies such as the Electoral Commission to check whether double voting were taking place. At the moment, there are just manual systems in which 400 local authorities all maintain their own marked registers. It is not practical to do that, so there would be advantages to rolling out this system.

Thirdly, I ask whether it will be made clear to people, within the digital information sent out, that there is a legal requirement to comply with the registration process. This is probably more important in Great Britain than in Northern Ireland but, since Parliament has continued to approve the principle that it should be a legal requirement to comply with the registration process, subject to fine, if we want high rates of registration, we must make this plain in all documentation, paper or electronic.

Finally, I have another technical question on the recall legislation. In many ways, the recall legislation, passed wholly in 2015, seems flawed. What happened in Northern Ireland in 2018 highlighted some of those flaws. If the chief electoral officer will have access to the marked register in future, will that be in real time during the six-week process? One of the issues of controversy is that people will not know how many signatures have been collected during those six weeks. There have been three recall petitions since that legislation was approved. In two cases, well over 10% of the electorate signed, triggering a recall. But in one case, that in Northern Ireland, the number was just under 10%. I have the strong belief that, if people had known that there were just a few hundred signatures below the 10% level, more people would have signed that recall petition. Will the chief electoral officer have the power to, at some point—perhaps weekly intervals—disclose how many people have signed the recall petition? I would be grateful for the Minister’s help with those issues.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I too thank the Minister for introducing these regulations so ably. I completely agree with the many comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. On the point the Minister made about how these changes will enable us to focus on under-registered groups, I re-emphasise the point of the noble Lord: will that mean that the resources saved can be put into this vital task? The Minister suggests that this will enable greater time and focus, but will that be backed up by a transfer of resources, as the noble Lord suggested?

I have a couple of minor points. I do not want to be seen as pedantic—certainly not by the people behind the Minister—but the online statutory instrument tracker says that an instrument of the same name was tabled on 20 January, only to be withdrawn on 27 February. It appears to have been re-laid on 3 March. There is no mention of this in the Explanatory Memorandum.

I wonder what caused this. Was it an administrative change or a political one? I hope that the Minister can explain. I am a firm believer in the cock-up theory of history, and it may simply have been down to that. I noticed that, in the Explanatory Memorandum, the footer said it was drafted by the Department for Exiting the European Union. I assume that that is not the case and was just another little error.

Focusing on the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, we are all in favour of making it easier and simpler for people to register. I hear what he said about the electoral officer retaining people on the register for three years and using data matching; that is really important. The noble Lord raised the ability of people simply to check whether they are registered online—that would certainly make life a lot easier. I hope that the Minister will be able to pick up that point.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their general support for this order. I will try to answer as many questions as I can, although I feel a letter coming their way. I acknowledge the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, in this area. All four of his questions are pretty technical; I have some answers, but the main ones will come in a letter.

The noble Lord also made an extremely good and interesting point about the fact that the process will be cheaper and more efficient, and that the efficiency costs could therefore be used to improve the process, including looking at underrepresentation. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, also picked up on that. I reassure both noble Lords that the CEO has new initiatives for underrepresented groups anyway and intends to focus on working with—to give a few examples—the Department for Education, care homes and the rental sector. I will take the points raised back to the department as interesting ideas.

As I mentioned, the tail end of the process is what I call the knock-up process. It is very important that people do register. If they have not registered online and the paper process also fails, the knock-up process is vital. It is important, legislatively, that people register. I will write to noble Lords to explain what the sanctions are. People should not get away with not registering.

The question of district registration numbers cropped up from both noble Lords. More work could—and, I am sure, will—be done to improve efficiency and to use the system more broadly and to better effect. I will find out whether the DRN can be used for individuals to go online and find out whether they are already registered, because time goes by and they may not remember.

Dealing with offences of double voting is an issue around the United Kingdom. I am sure this will be looked at but I will feed the comments to officials and see whether I can write with some more definitive views.

As I have said, it is a legal requirement to register and to comply, so the question of fines does crop up and I shall come back to that.

On recall, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, the legislation is clear that it is an offence to reveal the details of signature numbers and I am not aware of any proposal to change that. The noble Lord also raised a number of further points on recall relating in particular to the 2018 issue. Again, I will write with more detail on those.