Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Bassam of Brighton

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th April 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)]

I take the Minister’s point and I will settle for the appellation “investigatory powers nerd”; I am quite happy with that. Does the Minister agree with me, however, that the legal difficulty —we see this with the other bulk powers already in our law—is that Article 8 of the European convention locks in not when a human eye gets stuck into the detail, but as soon as a machine harvests the data in bulk? Most of that data relates to people in respect of whom there could be no possible suspicion. Satisfying the requirements of necessity and proportionality must be done even at that stage. I understand that that is awkward and I am sure a lot of people would prefer that it was otherwise, but that is, as I understand it, the law. That renders the distinction that the Minister seeks to draw between data gathering and surveillance perhaps slightly difficult to maintain.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

If I may just answer that question from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson; I think it is important to take one question at a time.

I have every sympathy with what the noble Lord has said. As I mentioned on Monday, points could easily raised about that—I think it may have been the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who raised points about computers and their robustness. This is the very point that we agree with. It is incredibly important and we have started already to draw up a proper code of practice to work with the banks on how this will actually work. We need continued time to work these issues through. I also made the point on Monday that, at the end of the day, a human being will be there—must be there—to determine where we go from there.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Indeed, I was going to come on to that later in my remarks, particularly to address the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. We need the necessary time to continue to develop this code of practice, and that is particularly important in respect of this measure. The answer is no, I cannot guarantee to have the code of practice ready by Report. Indeed, I am saying that it will be ready sometime in the summer. It is important to make that point but also a further one, which is that there are many instances, as the noble Lord will know, when a code of practice is finalised and brought forward after the primary legislation is brought through, and this is one of those cases. That is not abnormal but normal. The noble Lord may not like it but there is considerable precedent for that to happen.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

I have a question. I am slightly puzzled about the difference between data collection and surveillance. Surely the collection and gathering of data would be to enable officials to survey someone’s bank account. If that is not the case, what is the purpose of collecting the data if not to interrogate the behaviour of an individual to understand how their money is being brought in and spent, so that the department can exercise some judgment over whether the individual is revealing the truth about their income and outgoings?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Indeed, I think we are going back to the debates that we had on Monday. However, this chimes with a question from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, so it might be helpful briefly to rehearse what we are doing here and to be clear about the limitations and the checks and balances on the power that we are bringing forward.

As per paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 11 to the draft legislation, the DWP can use this power only for the purposes of checking whether someone is eligible for the benefit that they are receiving. In practice, this means that the DWP will request information only on specific criteria, which I laid out on Monday, linked to benefit eligibility rules, which, if met may—I emphasise “may”—indicate fraud or error. If accounts do not match these criteria, no data will be shared with the DWP. The effect of paragraphs 1 and 2 of the draft legislation is that the DWP can ask for data only where there is this three-way relationship between the DWP, the third party and the recipient of the payment. In addition, the DWP can ask for data only from third parties designated in secondary legislation, subject to the affirmative procedure. There are debates to come as further reassurance to your Lordships.

As per paragraph 4(2) of Schedule 11 to the draft legislation, the power does not allow the DWP to share personal information with third parties, which means that the power can be used only with third parties who are able to identify benefit recipients independently. Just to add further to this, we are obliged, under Article 5(1)(c) of the UK GDPR, to ask only for the minimum of information to serve our purposes. In accordance with the DWP’s existing commitments on the use of automation, no automatic benefit decisions will be taken based on any information supplied by third parties to the DWP. As I said earlier and on Monday, a human will always be involved in decision-making. I hope that helps.

Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Bassam of Brighton

Committee stage
Monday 22nd April 2024 Grand Committee

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I will need to get back to the noble Lord on that, but perhaps can reassure him that it is already being worked on. You can imagine that, because of the sensitivity of these powers, we are working very carefully on this and making sure that it will be fit for purpose.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

Can we see the draft code of practice before Report?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

That is part of the answer that I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, which I think is a fair point.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, asked about the code of practice and what steps my department will take to ensure transparency and accountability in the exercise of these powers if they are implemented. In the primary legislation, we will make provision to publish the code of practice, which will set out general guidance on how the third-party data power will work, as I have mentioned. We will develop the code of practice with relevant third parties and it will be consulted on publicly before being laid in Parliament. We will explain what the expectation is for data holders and ensure full compliance for the DWP. This will provide assurance that we will operate transparently and mirror the approach that we have taken with other DWP powers. Any changes to the code of practice, other than minor changes, will also be done in consultation with stakeholders.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, stated that the power was too broad and the gist of one of her questions was that there is no need for all these benefits to be in scope. As the noble Baroness has demonstrated, there is a wide range of benefits and therefore potential avenues for fraudsters to seek to exploit or for error to creep in. That is why it is important that the power enables the department to respond proactively, as new fraud risks emerge.

That said, as the noble Baroness knows, the power will not be exercisable in all the benefits that she listed, such as child benefit, because the legislation is drafted in such a way that it could reasonably be exercised only in relation to benefits for which the Secretary of State is responsible. I reassure the Committee that using Section 121DA of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 is a consistent approach that we take to defining benefits in this way to safeguard all existing legislation and account for a benefit being, for example, renamed or amended. It should be stressed that the listing of a benefit does not mean that this power can or will be exercised upon it. The conditions in the third-party data legislation must still apply, and therefore not all benefits will be subject to this measure. That is a very important point.

Trade Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Bassam of Brighton

Report stage & Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, now that the Brexit transition period has ended, the creation of the Trade Remedies Authority is obviously both necessary and very welcome. It should allow the UK to protect domestic industries, investigate allegations of unfair practices by overseas competitors and seek their resolution via the WTO’s dispute settlement mechanism. We must have a Trade Remedies Authority that has a broad membership from sectors and regions across the UK, conducts meaningful stakeholder engagement and, of course, is independent from the Government.

I do not buy the argument from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, that it is not the business of Parliament to give some guidance or ideas as to who those meaningful stakeholders might be in ensuring that we get this right. Only then, I argue, will it be transparent and fair when investigating and challenging practices that distort competition against UK producers. But the Bill appears not to secure this, as reflected by my Amendment 47 and the other amendments in this group, which are in their own way entirely benign. It is worth reminding ourselves that the Lords Constitution Committee said that it was not clear why the functions and powers of the Trade Remedies Authority could not be set out in more detail in this Bill. We cannot have an unbalanced TRA that simply supports the priorities and approach of this Government, or indeed any Government. We need a functioning TRA and a functioning trade remedies system, but its functioning will be undermined if there is no independence.

Amendment 47 is simple. It allows the Secretary of State to ensure that members of the TRA should have the

“skills, knowledge or experience relating to producers, trade unions, consumers and devolved administrations in different parts of the United Kingdom.”

The amendment clearly seeks to guarantee an appropriate balance of views at the TRA, not in favour of any party or sector but for the benefit of all regions, nations and businesses. In particular, I argue that we need trade union representation in the TRA. The TUC has said that, without it, there will be

“no guarantee provided that the non-executive members will represent the interests of workers in manufacturing sectors who will be severely affected by the dumping of cheap goods such as steel, tyres and ceramics.”

I hope that the Minister can explain in some detail how this balance can be achieved without the necessity of this and other amendments being in the Bill.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, there have been some succinct speeches in this debate and I shall keep my remarks relatively brief, but bearing in mind that there are six amendments to address.

Amendment 27 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, seeks to require the TRA to publish a strategy of its engagement with certain stakeholders within six months of its establishment. I am afraid that I agree with my noble friend Lady Noakes that we do not see merit in this, and I shall briefly explain why. The TRA’s processes are set out in legislation and limited by the scope of WTO agreements, including much of the basis of how it will engage with stakeholders in its investigations. UK producers will be able to bring complaints directly to the TRA through an innovative digital service which will underpin the process and make it easier for businesses to engage. I hope that I can provide further reassurance to the noble Baroness by outlining that we have engaged extensively with various stakeholders on establishing the TRA and encouraged them to build constructive relationships with the TRA itself, once established. I shall say more, particularly in relation to questions raised by my noble friend Lord Lansley, about progress on setting up the TRA in a moment.

I will move swiftly on to Amendments 28 and 29, in the name of my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, in relation to the TRA. These amendments would seek to narrow the limits of a request that the Secretary of State may make to the TRA for advice, support or assistance. We are committed to creating a world-class organisation staffed by a team of highly skilled international trade experts. The Secretary of State may require assistance from the TRA’s knowledgeable experts in certain circumstances to assist work carried out by government departments. There are some situations where the Secretary of State may need to request assistance from the TRA outside of trade remedy disputes arising under the WTO dispute settlement mechanism, including assistance in respect of provisions relating to trade remedies in regional trade agreements. In seeking assistance, however, the Secretary of State must have regard to the TRA’s independence, impartiality and expertise.

Trade Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Lord Bassam of Brighton

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I, too, am extremely sympathetic to these amendments and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for bringing them forward. As she argued, trade policy is about much more than trade, and it is truly shocking that the Bill is currently completely silent on climate change and its impact on the environment.

These amendments would encourage the Trade Remedies Authority to take account of our environmental obligations and give advice to the Secretary of State accordingly. As colleagues have previously said, the issues of climate change and environmental protection should be central to all our future considerations of trade policy, but this goes totally unmentioned in the Bill.

Labour believes that achieving our environmental goals, including net zero by 2050, requires action across all areas of policy. For that reason, trade must be included in that, so the TRA should play its part, too. My question is very simple: can the Minister confirm how the TRA will take account of UK environmental obligations, and will he please enable it to give that advice to the Secretary of State?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I have already spoken during the course of this Bill of the Government’s commitment to addressing the global environmental challenges that we face. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, that we should continue to debate these very important matters, not just for the UK but for our whole planet. On this at least, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman, Lady Jones and Lady Kramer, and I are in full agreement. However, we cannot accept the amendments, and it is incumbent on me to explain why.

Amendment 77, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lady Kramer, would create a new role for the TRA when it provides advice and support to the Secretary of State, by requiring it to analyse impacts on the UK’s international environmental obligations. This amendment would fundamentally change the function of the TRA, which is being established to act as the UK’s investigatory body for trade remedies. Its core role will be to determine whether to recommend imposing trade remedy measures, in accordance with the rules set out in the relevant WTO agreements. Its role does not and should not extend to providing expertise on the UK’s international environmental obligations. To do so would detract from its function as the UK’s investigatory body for trade remedies. This expertise lies elsewhere across other departments and NDPBs, and requiring the TRA to duplicate it is both unnecessary and wasteful.

I turn to Amendment 83A, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, but spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted. The amendment would add further criteria to when the Trade Remedies Authority or the Secretary of State consider whether anti-dumping or anti-subsidy remedies meet the economic interest test. Specifically, it would require the UK’s environmental obligations to be taken into account, as far as they are relevant. As with the previous amendment, the primary focus of trade remedy cases is, and has to be, protecting domestic industry from injury where appropriate. Trade remedies cases are not the vehicle for progressing the UK’s domestic or global ambitions on environmental issues, although environmental implications could be considered by the Secretary of State as part of her consideration of whether the measure is in the public interest. On this basis, I would ask that the amendments be withdrawn.