Coronavirus Grants: Fraud
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Smith of Basildon(2 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, this Question might seem familiar because it is the third time that we have asked it. I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, for coming to the House to answer this today.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Perhaps I should start by thanking my noble friend Lord Agnew for allowing me the opportunity to stand here today—
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I promise that I shall stay the course. Throughout this dreadful crisis that we have had to endure over the past two years, the Government’s number one priority has been to protect jobs and livelihoods while also supporting businesses and public services across the UK. We had to work particularly quickly to produce some generous packages to give the necessary support back in lockdown 1.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I hesitated because I was not sure if the noble Viscount had finished—because, again, he did not answer the Question. Whistleblowing is vital in exposing undesirable or unlawful conduct. The Government rightly expect others to operate to high standards but do not seem to be able to meet those standards themselves.
Yesterday, the serious frustrations of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, finally bubbled over, leading him to blow the whistle on his own colleagues as he departed. His lengthy statement yesterday exposed chaos and mismanagement across government, but it did not answer the question posed by my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe. The Chancellor has gone AWOL, and, in his absence, although the noble Viscount did not give the figure today, other junior Ministers have insisted that putting the coronavirus fraud at £4.3 billion is too simplistic.
Taxpayers are footing the bill; your Lordships’ House and they deserve answers. If it is not £4.3 billion-worth of fraud, how much is it? If he has not got the answer today—I think noble Lords will understand why—can we at least be told when we will know and exactly how much of that the Treasury intends to write off?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
It is a slightly complicated picture, but the Government continue to work actively with the British Business Bank, lenders and fraud authorities to identify and address fraud risks and recover loans obtained fraudulently. On the noble Baroness’s question, the £4.3 billion figure is not recognised by HMRC; it is an inference made in the report by the Times, which I am sure the noble Baroness has read. The figure that was taken out of that was £5.8 billion, which was in the report and accounts of HMRC. Some £500 million, which was returned, should be deducted from that, so we think that there is £800 million to £1 billion to recover.
Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, first, I thank all speakers who contributed to this debate on the regulations on a subject matter which, as I said in my opening speech, I fully recognise is a sensitive and emotive issue. But can I start by saying how much I appreciated the remarks from the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie? Her speech was sensible and balanced in terms of where we are now. She used the word “regret,” and she is right, in terms of the position we find ourselves in.
I would also like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for her remarks. I was grateful that she put, extremely eloquently, what we might both agree is the other side of the argument. I was very moved by the short story that she gave about the sad case of a particular girl.
I will directly answer one question the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, gave about the remarks that came from the Minister of State, Robin Walker, who said the plan is that the Department of Health in Northern Ireland will, hopefully, take heed of what we are doing and move quickly. However, he is happy to have what he has called a pause before the Summer Recess. That means he wants to allow further movement from the Department of Health so is prepared to allow a bit of leeway. I hope that provides some clarity, but if it does not, I will certainly write to the noble Baroness.
The noble Baroness’s second question, which I scribbled down, on the extent and quality of abortion services, is an extremely good point. I may be able to address that later, but if not, again, I shall write to the noble Baroness.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My question was not on the quality of abortion services but on the wider services provided on sexual health, contraception and care.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Of course. That is an extremely good point. I will pick up on that.
However, I recognise that several noble Lords—and many today—have registered their strong opposition to what we are doing. But we are under a clear statutory duty, and it is important that women and girls in Northern Ireland are afforded equal rights to those living across the rest of the UK.
Before turning to the substantive issues raised in today’s debate, since some noble Lords have questioned the extent of our legal powers, I would like the House to note that the JCSI has not drawn the instrument to the attention of both Houses for being ultra vires. But I will speak about constitutional matters later on, assuming that there is time.
I also note the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and my noble friend Lord Shinkwin. I hope that the answers I give in relation to the issues raised will go a little way in explaining that these amendments, in our view and in my view, should not be supported.
My noble friend Lord Shinkwin raised issues about the potential for the framework set out in the March 2020 regulations to allow for discrimination against disability. I do, as he will know, respect my noble friend, and I am grateful to him for raising this important and sensitive issue once again. He should note that we are legally bound to implement the CEDAW recommendations, which include providing access to abortions in cases of severe foetal impairment, not only in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities. It is our firm view that the regulations properly comply with the statutory duty under Section 9 of the NIEF Act, which includes implementing all the recommendations in the CEDAW report. The regulations mirror the law in the rest of the UK, where abortions are permitted in cases of severe foetal impairment and fatal foetal abnormality, with no time limit.
The Government would never act to discriminate on the basis of disability. The regulations are consistent with the rights under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Proper provision of information, clear medical advice and counselling and other supports are all key in allowing a woman or girl to make an informed decision in what are often difficult situations. I was grateful for the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who spoke eloquently and passionately about this aspect. This ensures access without barriers for victims of sexual crime as well as other women seeking an abortion, supporting the rights of women and girls to make informed decisions about how they wish to proceed, based on their health and wider circumstances, within the health system, rather than looking to alternative, unsafe means. This provision was determined as the most appropriate way of meeting our statutory duty and what CEDAW requires by ensuring that women, including victims of sexual crime, access services without undue delay while avoiding anything that could lead to further trauma or act as a barrier to access.
I would like to pick up on a point raised by my noble friend Lord Shinkwin. I will not be addressing his very strong views that he raised, and, as he would expect, I disagree very strongly with much of what he said, I regret to have to say. Let me say this: given the often late diagnosis and the timing of follow-up scans and tests, women will need to be given time to understand the nature and severity of the condition that they find themselves in. It is only right that women have appropriate time to make individual, informed decisions based on their own health and wider circumstances, including support where they want to carry a pregnancy to term. I think this point was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, as well. It is crucial that the Department of Health acts urgently to formally commission full services, consistent with the regulations we made, so that these support measures can be properly delivered.
As I mentioned in my opening speech, I remind noble Lords that the Assembly can consider and debate issues related to abortion. As I also said in my opening speech, any amendments must be compliant with convention rights, and the Secretary of State has an ongoing obligation to ensure ongoing consistency with the recommendations in the CEDAW report in Northern Ireland.
The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, said that abortion remains devolved, and that the Government should instead be asking Parliament to repeal Section 9; that was mentioned by a few other Peers as well. I remind noble Lords that, although the Executive was restored, the statutory duty in Section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act did not fall away with the restoration, nor with the making of the initial regulations that came into force on 31 March 2020. The devolution settlement does not absolve us of our responsibility to uphold the rights of women and girls in this context. The noble Lord may not agree, but I think this goes a little way towards answering the question raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. This is not about stepping in on a devolved matter, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, suggested it was. This is about ensuring compliance with the statutory duties Parliament imposed on the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in mid-2019.
One point that I wish to comment on—it was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie—is that I do not believe that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, is correct when he says that all Northern Ireland MPs oppose this. May I quote from Stephen Farry, who said:
“As an MP from Northern Ireland, I wish to stress my support for these regulations and the approach that is being adopted in this particular area by the Northern Ireland Office. There is a broad-based political support, and most importantly from the women’s sector, for these regulations.”
Here I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie. This should not be lost on the House.
We are in a unique position on this issue. As I said earlier, Parliament placed the Government under a very specific statutory duty with respect to access to abortion services in Northern Ireland. That is why we have had to deliver the regulations, and continue to have a role in this space. I must re-emphasise these points to many who have spoken today, including my noble friend Lady Eaton, and the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. Although we made the regulations last March providing the framework for access to abortions, and some service provision commenced, this has not discharged that statutory duty in full. We are not seeking to reopen the 2020 abortion regulations, which were approved by a significant majority of this House—by 332 votes to 99—last year.
I shall now quickly answer some of the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, about the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report, which noted “complex legal and constitutional” issues. I agree that the issues raised are complex. I also agree with what the House of Lords Select Committee on the Constitution said; this was also raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. It said that the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive should engage in a “constructive” manner.
I recognise that some noble Lords have concerns about the regulations providing unconditional access to abortions up to 12 weeks’ gestation. This provision was determined as the most appropriate way of meeting our statutory duty, and what CEDAW requires, by ensuring that women, including victims of sexual crime, can access services without undue delay while avoiding anything that could lead to further trauma or act as a barrier to access. Based on current public data, 86% of the abortions accessed by residents of Northern Ireland in England under the Abortion Act 1967 in 2018-19 took place prior to 12 weeks’ gestation and would be covered by this limit.
Before I finish winding up, I want to answer a point raised by my noble friend Lord Moylan and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay on the international aspect of this obligation. It is true that the rules are domestic, so the duty to implement the CEDAW recommendations in this context is a matter of domestic law, which the Secretary of State is under a statutory duty to deliver, not a matter of international law. We recognise that Parliament has stepped in and imposed this duty on the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on human rights grounds. I have addressed that directly.
In conclusion, we should bear in mind the fact that these further regulations are ultimately about ensuring that the regulations made in March 2020 are implemented. Essentially, they are about the rights of women and girls, and their being able to access medical treatment in distressing and difficult circumstances, where they have a right to choose what is right for them. We should act in a way to support them in these cases. That is why I commend the regulations to the House.
United Kingdom Government-Northern Ireland Executive Joint Board
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My noble friend makes a good point about emphasising the union. This Government continue to want to show the importance of the union and how all parts of the UK, including Northern Ireland, benefit from it. The city deals are one example of direct funding to the devolved Administrations.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I have listened carefully to the answers from the Minister, but can I take him back to the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden? He asked when the next meeting would be—to which he received an answer—and what would be on the agenda. All I have heard so far from the Minister is what will not be on the agenda, despite some excellent suggestions from the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, my noble friend Lord Liddle and others. Perhaps I may press him on this, because there is a sense of urgency here. We were greatly appreciative of the work of the former Secretary of State in securing the New Decade, New Approach deal, but if all the Minister can tell us about the agenda is that there will be a review of the progress that has been made, it does not leave us with much confidence that real progress is being made. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Caine, about the manifesto is apt. I hope that the Minister can give us some meat on the bones here and tell us exactly what will be discussed and what will be on the agenda. That was the Question.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Indeed, the noble Baroness is right, and I have taken on board her question. This is very much a matter for the Executive and I do not have in front of me the details of the agenda. However, at the first meeting, the terms of reference were agreed, and it remains up to the Executive to decide whether to make this, and indeed any other matter relating to the agenda, public.
Northern Ireland: Payments to Victims of the Troubles
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
The Northern Ireland Office is doing its best to support the Executive in speeding up this process. I gave some indication earlier as to what is required and what has started to be done. We all very much hope that the March date can be brought forward. The Secretary of State is leading the push for greater speed.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister knows my particular interest in this issue, as a former Northern Ireland victims’ Minister. I, too, pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, who has really pushed this and shown a real commitment. Let us be clear what is happening. The reason why the Department of Justice is dealing with this issue is because the High Court said that the Northern Ireland Executive was acting unlawfully in delaying implementation of the scheme. The Minister of Justice, Naomi Long, has outlined the operational steps that need to be undertaken, but she says that not all of them are in her department’s control. There would seem to be a role for the NIO in asking for updates of what is happening and providing support to her, to try to make these other operational areas happen. What steps is the NIO taking and when was the last meeting with Naomi Long to discuss this?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
The noble Baroness is right when she talks about the review. The judge made a clear ruling that the Executive Office was acting unlawfully in not designating a department. This is now happening—this process is now taking place. I cannot tell the noble Baroness precisely what is happening at this moment, but I reassure her and the House that the Northern Ireland Office continues to regard this as a priority. It is doing its best to work with the parties to take this forward and to get the payments made at the earliest opportunity.
Abortion Regulations: Northern Ireland
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab) [V]
My Lords, as a result of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, this House will debate the regulations on abortion next week. Any discussion about abortion evokes strong emotions and deeply held views. When we passed the legislation, we had detailed and thoughtful consideration of these provisions. Today, the Commons committee debated and passed the regulations by 15 votes to two. If there was a vote of all MPs, we should expect a similar result. So, first, can the Minister confirm that the change in the law to decriminalise abortion in Northern Ireland has already taken effect and that these regulations are about the framework for service provision? Secondly, can he confirm that the regulations fulfil a statutory duty, are essential to ensure that the UK Government fulfil their human rights obligations, and therefore must be considered by your Lordships’ House?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con) [V]
My Lords, I totally agree with the noble Baroness that this is a very emotional subject. There have been debates in Parliament over the last few months, if not years. As the noble Baroness said, the regulations are being brought forward and there was a vote in the Commons today. The Government were placed under a statutory duty to deliver abortion law for Northern Ireland by implementing the recommendations of the CEDAW report.
Northern Ireland: Victims Payment Scheme
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Viscount Younger of Leckie
That is right; my noble friend echoes what I have been saying. To clarify, the UK Government made the legislation establishing a victims payments scheme in January. They did so both to fulfil their legal obligation under the Act and because they are committed to doing what they can to progress the scheme, which has been delayed by political disagreements for too long. We must put those political disagreements to one side and go ahead as soon as possible and make these payments.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I have listened carefully to the Minister—I assume that the victims in Northern Ireland are also listening—and he does not give me any great confidence that next week, all the processes will be in place, a Minister will be in place to deal with this, and it will happen. It is all very well saying that it is the fault of the Northern Ireland Executive; they say it is the fault of the UK Government. If I were a victim, I would want to bang their heads together to get a solution. Even though the Minister is not the Northern Ireland Minister himself, can he listen to the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, a former Northern Ireland Minister in the House of Lords, and do everything possible—not just warm words—to make this happen?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
Yes, of course. I acknowledge the noble Baroness’s role in past matters dealing with victims. She will know that I am giving as much reassurance as I possibly can. This is being dealt with now, as a matter of urgency. I say again: it is not just disappointing but very frustrating for all concerned, particularly the victims, that these payments have been delayed.
Northern Ireland: Customs
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The initial Question from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, slightly confused the specific and limited approach towards the requirements of certain agri-food products moving from Great Britain and Northern Ireland with the “unfettered access” part of the argument, which is from Northern Ireland to Great Britain—as set out in New Decade, New Approach.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am absolutely flabbergasted listening to the Minister’s answers today. At no point is he answering the questions put to him on really serious issues. I appreciate that he is not a Northern Ireland Minister; in fact, he was the Minister for Faith and Communities. Perhaps it needs a leap of faith to believe some of the things the Prime Minister has said on this. I have two questions. First, when will the Government appoint a Minister to deal with Northern Ireland issues in the House of Lords and show the issue the respect it deserves? Secondly, I bring the Minister back to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Rogan. The Prime Minister said that, if someone asks you to fill in any form of any kind,
“tell them to ring up the Prime Minister, and I will direct them to throw that form in the bin.”
He was referring to customs and tariffs. On that point, if somebody does what the Prime Minister says and tears up the form and puts it in the bin, what number should they call to speak to the Prime Minister?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The noble Baroness is right: that is what the Prime Minister said, and he is adamant that there will be unfettered access. That is all I need say.
United Kingdom Government-Northern Ireland Executive Joint Board
Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Baroness Smith of Basildon
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The noble Baroness is right. I do not have a precise date, but I know that the joint board, which is going to be meeting imminently, will be discussing this very important factor, along with other important issues. As I say, I do not have a date for that, but it will happen soon.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, to stay with the issue of health, I am not 100% clear on this particular question, so perhaps the Minister can tell me. Is the joint board purely for discussions on the delivery of the Stormont deal, or is it an opportunity for a new mechanism in UK/Northern Ireland co-operation? If so, there is an opportunity here. The Northern Ireland Executive were talking to the Irish Government last week to co-ordinate responses on Covid-19. I do not know what meetings there have been between UK Ministers and members of the Northern Ireland Executive, but there seems to be an opportunity to use this body as a way of co-ordinating responses, particularly given the differences that there are—schools are one example; health is another. Can the Minister say something about what meetings have taken place?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
As I said earlier, the members of the joint board, which is made up of the Secretary of State, the Deputy Minister and the First Minister, are in touch. They have yet to meet, but they will meet very soon. On the health issues and Covid-19, the CMOs are in direct touch. There is a very good link between the CMO in this country and those of the devolved Administrations to discuss matters relating to that very important point.