Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Eccles and Lord Maclennan of Rogart

Monday 4th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, I think it was Hegel who got us all into the categorical imperative of “must”. I have certainly tried to organise my life on the basis of using the word as infrequently as possible, but I defer to more expert opinions as to whether it should be “must” rather than “may”. I would like to emphasise the point, which was made much more elegantly than I can by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, that we are considering this Bill. I, too, have very strong views about the way in which orders and statutory instruments are laid and the way in which the House considers them.

In thinking about that, my mind goes back to home information packs and the big casino in Manchester. It is not unknown that this House decides that it is not going to live with what at that time was an ordinary affirmative order rather than a super-affirmative order, but Amendment 71 is in danger of over-elaboration. If both Houses of Parliament take Clause 11 as it is in the Bill at present, they have the opportunity for full and adequate scrutiny and, by the recommendations of committees, to put Ministers in the position where they will have to bring forward an amendment.

On the question of amendments, the point is well illustrated by the Bill. Not many amendments are moved by Members of this House that, even if they are approved, remain as they were on the day of approval. They need to go back to the parliamentary draftsmen. The committees of this House do not have parliamentary draftsmen. As an amending and revising Chamber, we do our best work when we persuade the Government that they should take an amendment away and make it into something that will really work as legislation.

Very briefly on the matter of over-elaboration, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, would make us go back to the consultation and the representations made in that consultation three times—not just the first time because the Minister must lay it out a second time and then, as in the proposed subsection, a third time. That is overly repetitious, because unless it is also specified that something should be put out to a new consultation, the process will be overly elaborate.

I should like to make one other point. If a draft order is referred to committees of both Houses and those committees have the power to put forward amendments but those amendments are in disagreement, it will take a very considerable time to sort out that kind of disagreement between the two Houses. Given that many of the things that will be done when this Bill is enacted are in fact pretty straightforward, simple and not very controversial, to over-elaborate the process is a mistake.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

I rise briefly to say that I agree with my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. The issue raised by Amendment 71 is of great importance and ought to be considered in the wider space of the practices of the House as a whole. It does seem anomalous that we cannot amend secondary, subordinate legislation, and therefore it would be attractive if proposals could be referred to committees for consideration because it could be a time-saving approach. It would allow committees to consider in detail matters that cannot effectively be considered in a debate on a statutory instrument that lasts one and a half hours. However, we have some of that process in the House already.

The wide-ranging effects of Amendment 71 would delegate too much power to committees. I take the view that a case still has to be made that committees should have binding authority to prevent legislation being considered on the Floor of the House. That, as I understand it, is what this amendment could result in. It is also not entirely clear if the committee considering whether or not a draft order should be approved under proposed subsection (9) would be an existing committee that took it upon itself to do so. I think that more than one committee has that power, or a power to consider draft orders. It might be the intention of the noble Lord who has moved the amendment that this should be for a special ad hoc committee and not for the Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform. That is not made clear. However, if an ad hoc committee had to be set up, that would be another stage in the process of deciding whether the measure was of sufficient importance to require that to be done.

This is not a matter to be decided on Report, however important it may be—I am quite clear that it is immensely important. It should be referred for wider consultation in the House, perhaps by the Procedure Committee. This is also a matter that should be considered in conjunction with another place because both Houses have an interest in it. It might make more sense to do that in a Joint Committee.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Eccles and Lord Maclennan of Rogart

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, like the noble and learned Lord, who is a former Lord Chief Justice, I did not speak in Committee and I hope that my intervention at this stage will be forgiven. However, this has been an astonishingly informed debate and all those who participated have demonstrated immediate experience of the working of the youth justice system and the Youth Justice Board in particular. I rise as someone who has not had that direct experience in England, although I have observed at reasonably close quarters the working of the children’s panel system in Scotland. I commend that to my noble friends as a system that works remarkably well in dealing with the care of troubled children and the prevention of crime.

However, an outside voice can sometimes be helpful in these debates, particularly as, if neither of these amendments is carried, the matter will go to another place where there will unquestionably be knowledge about the youth offending system but not the same direct, immediate experience. I served for 17 years on the Public Accounts Committee and the argumentation that that body has produced, as recently as six weeks ago, appears to be profoundly important in the context in which this measure is being introduced. Inevitably, because the board is one of a number of bodies being wound up, this is seen in the context of economy and value for money. Many of those who have already spoken in this debate have questioned whether value for money will in fact be achieved by drawing these decisions into the department itself.

I do not believe that the implication that Ministers will give it closer insight is sustainable. Ministers are enormously busy and rely heavily on having their attention drawn to weaknesses in a system or in its administration. If the emphasis is to be all on localism—and the place for localism is certainly not being contested by me—it seems highly improbable that there will not necessarily be that experienced oversight of the workings of the youth offending teams, which have had some years to test themselves. It is quite possible that those who have the job of overseeing these matters within the department will feel a need to defend the stance taken rather than a need to spot uncertainties, inefficiencies and unsuitable behaviour.

I recognise that the Public Accounts Committee has not infrequently had the experience of dealing with bodies of this kind within the Civil Service. Ultimately, however, it tends to admit that the accounting officer is responsible for answering the questions. In turn, that might lead to a statement that the real responsibility lies with the policy-maker: that is to say, the Minister. The actuality is very different. The case made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for separating out these functions and having clear responsibility for administration separated from the Minister responsible is unanswerable.

It seems to me that there will be much greater transparency if the Youth Justice Board is preserved. Good and bad examples will surface and lessons can be learnt from both. If this is all done within the department, I fear that the issues will become muddied and unclear. The progress that has been made in bringing about a reduction in recidivism and offending among the young and the economic advantages for the community that have stemmed from fewer numbers in custody, not to speak of citizens’ general concern to live peacefully in the community with young troubled people, has definitely been assisted by this relatively new innovation.

I hope the Government will give this real further consideration. We have had lengthy debates on this already and I do not believe that there has been sufficient opportunity for extensive consultation with all those involved. I know that the Youth Justice Board has taken a very positive role in dialogue with the Government, but this is something that extends right across the country. People from all ranks of society are affected by it, and consequently it is not something that should be rushed. It is not broken, so we should not seek to repair it.

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, I spoke in Committee and I have not had the benefit of any discussions between Committee and Report. Like everyone else, I await with great interest the reply from my Front Bench. However, I am reminded that there are two amendments in this group and I think it has been notable that only the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Ramsbotham, have actually referred to Amendment 21B in any depth or detail. The noble Lord, Lord Elton, did not put his name to Amendment 21B, so I assume he does not support it.

I suppose the question that we are facing is how much independence should be provided to those who think through and monitor youth justice. There is a very widespread feeling in the House, which I share, that a fairly high degree of independence is desirable. In the discussion, it seems to me that the Youth Justice Board is the good boy and NOMS is the bad boy. That does not seem to be an inevitable outcome of running the Prison Service, but is what has come across. What has also come across to me as I have listened to the debate is that the Youth Justice Board is not quite the clear distinction between policy and operations which the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, put across to us. Many other people have been involved in improvements, which have been referred to, alongside the efforts of the Youth Justice Board.

This is an enabling Bill; nothing happens as a result of this Bill becoming an Act until a Minister lays an order in front of Parliament. Parliament, at that time, as we shall see later in the Bill, can reject that order. Some people feel that the secondary legislation procedures are such that it is not likely that Parliament will reject an order, but I do not agree. The power is there, so when an order is laid we should not give up the idea that we vote it down. As this is an enabling Bill, nothing happens until an order is laid. The question then becomes: do we believe, as in tennis, in sudden death? Amendment 20A is a form of sudden death, Amendment 21B is a form of giving a degree of independence to an executive agency, and neither of these sections in the Bill, if that is what they become, commits Ministers to lay an order at all. There is therefore still a great deal of time before the Government come to an irrevocable decision. I very much hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will deal with that matter in some detail.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Eccles and Lord Maclennan of Rogart

Monday 29th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, I have lived, and worked in industry, in the north-east for 55 years. I have been disappointed that so far in this debate we have heard nothing about the role of the local authorities. Nor have we heard from that region, which, from my perspective, is the Tees, the Wear and the Tyne; that is where the development has taken place. Middlesbrough is the largest importer of cars in the country—noble Lords might not think that is a fantastic thing to be done in that particular town, but there it is. I have worked in Stockton-on-Tees, in Hartlepool and up the coast of Durham when there were coal-mines, which the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, was reminding us about. We equipped Wearmouth and Westoe in the middle of Sunderland, I worked in Gateshead and I closed a foundry in Jarrow.

Noble Lords need to remember that in that part of the country, including Northumberland—with the greatest respect, it is completely different from, for example, the Durham bit of Teesside; again we have these curious metropolitan boundaries, as well as the county boundaries—the people of the north-east, as it was then called, voted against having a regional assembly.

I would be the last person to criticise One North East; I have benefited from it in my life in Barnard Castle, at the Bowes Museum. But if there is a body that has a lot of money, a lot of people are going to beat a path to its door, treat it with respect and have all sorts of negotiations with it that end up with successful grants. The matter is much more complicated than just being complimentary about One North East.

I dissent from my noble friend Lord Greaves, however; I do not believe that there is a place for regional government in the north-east of England. There is a place for strong local government; the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, does not have to be told about that. It is quite likely—in fact, I would put my money on this—that a combination of whatever the Government propose in the place of RDAs, some functions for central government, some important functions for local government and some important functions for councils and private sector organisations is quite likely to be a more effective force for development than trying to create a regional body that represents neither the history nor the beliefs of the people in that part of England.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords—