Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL]
Debate between Viscount Eccles and Baroness Wilcox
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
There is a challenge to start the day on. Our discussion on my noble friend Lord Eccles’s amendment is the first discussion today on financial penalties although I know that we have more to come, as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, has just said. As I said at Second Reading, the Government believe that the enforcement methods of recommendations and requirements to publish—so-called “name and shame”—are likely to be sufficient to ensure a higher level of compliance with the code. However, should those powers be insufficient, it is important to have the reserve power of allowing the adjudicator to impose financial penalties.
Before I continue, I say to my noble friend that here he has someone who understands supermarkets and these large companies and how they work. I have said before and will say again that I was a supplier to six of the largest supermarket groups. I ran a successful and happy business during that time, but of course I did it in the 1980s and in those days there was no written contract for chilled food at all. I had no written contract, so every time I filled a lorry with £50,000-worth of smoked salmon or smoked mackerel I could not even get insurance on it because I did not have a contract that I could show anyone. I took a risk in making those journeys every day but it was advantageous to me to do so. I am fully aware, as are the Government, that there is a relationship between the supermarkets and their suppliers and, ultimately and inevitably, to the consumer.
The Secretary of State would not activate this power lightly. The process by which he could do so is set out in detail in Schedule 3, but key aspects include the fact that the Secretary of State may make such an order only if he or she thinks that the adjudicator’s other powers are inadequate, and that before making such an order the Secretary of State must consult a range of parties, including the large retailers and the representatives of suppliers and consumers. The Bill provides sufficient checks to ensure that the power is introduced only if it is genuinely needed.
Maintaining the possibility of imposing financial penalties is essential if we are to be confident that the adjudicator will have the necessary powers to enforce the groceries code. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, was worried about the reasons for not prescribing the maximum fine in the Bill. It is more appropriate that such a maximum be informed by experience; for example, of how much retailers might be gaining from non-compliance. This experience can be gained only once the adjudicator is operational. Should the Secretary of State make an order to introduce fines, the order must specify the maximum penalty that may be imposed or how the maximum penalty is to be calculated.
The very existence of the reserve power will contribute strongly to ensuring compliance with the groceries code. Large retailers will be conscious that there is the prospect of a swift introduction of financial penalties if there is evidence of significant non-compliance with the groceries code and the existing regime seems not to be sufficiently effective. Clearly, all large retailers will prefer to avoid this situation arising.
The Bill’s provisions on financial penalties both encourage compliance with the initial enforcement regime and provide an important reserve power should stronger methods of enforcement be necessary. I therefore propose that the provision stand part of the Bill and ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, my noble friend starts from a zero base. If we read her words carefully in Hansard, we will find that it is as if we have no idea whether supermarkets are behaving in a fair-dealing way and we have to have in the locker a threat. Yet we have had a code of practice, which was thought not to be satisfactory and has been beefed up. I have heard nobody in this Committee say that the new code is unsatisfactory—I have heard the noble Lord, Lord Knight, suggest that it should be extended but I do not think that anybody has quarrelled with it. It has been in force for two years. All the 10 supermarkets have appointed compliance officers and all of them report publicly—with the exception of a German-owned supermarket that does not report publicly in this country—to the Office of Fair Trading. To say that we need the Bill to ensure compliance with the code is just wrong. We have all the evidence that we need to know whether the code is being complied with. Where other things are not being reported which either come under the code or could be thought to do so, I absolutely accept the need for their inclusion. It was for a list of those things that I was looking.
My noble friend’s taking on large orders for smoked fish with no written contract is beyond comment. She was obviously taking excessive risk, but it was not being passed on by the supermarkets, which no doubt would have been perfectly willing to enter into a written contract. She was undertaking that risk on her own account and I do not see what an adjudicator could do about that, except give some good advice.
Unfortunately, I am unsatisfied with the Minister’s reply and intend to raise the matter at the next stage of the Bill. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Eccles
I fully agree with that. What industry needs is certainty. What it cannot live with is uncertainty. It needs to have as many of the factors that are going to influence what it does and the way it does it as settled as possible. Uncertainty is the enemy of good business.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, as has been mentioned, I listened very carefully at Second Reading when the subject of Schedule 3 was discussed. I know that many noble Lords feel that the process set out there is too clunky—I think that was the word that was used—and bureaucratic, and that it should be simpler and quicker. I assure the Committee that it was not the intention of the Government to introduce a clunky process, so this is something we are willing to look at, and if it is clunky we will need to amend it.
However, while the Government are willing to consider amendments in this area, I feel that those that have been laid today go a bit too far. In particular, the Government believe that financial penalties should be available only if the other powers are inadequate. After all, if the other powers are adequate, why do we need fines? We should not seek to punish the supermarkets for the sake of it, given the strong contribution that they make to the UK economy and to employment.
Similarly, I feel that stripping out consultation altogether is not appropriate for a significant measure. Evidence is important and consultation takes only three months. I believe it would be more appropriate to look to streamline and simplify that consultation process rather than eliminating it altogether.
The noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Grantchester, have put forward two amendments, both requiring draft guidance on financial penalties to be published within a year of the adjudicator being introduced. These amendments are identical except that one requires consultation and one does not. I will therefore address the principle of both together.
The publication of guidance is intended to ensure that those dealing with the adjudicator have a proper understanding of how it will act and of what is expected of them. Draft guidance on a power that the adjudicator does not have would not provide such clarity. Rather, we need to find a way to streamline the production of guidance if it is necessary, rather than producing it in advance.
I can answer two questions. To the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, yes, the consultation will be carried out in the usual way. I hope that that is reassuring. To the noble Lord, Lord Browne, the reason for not prescribing the maximum fine in the Bill is that it is more appropriate that such a maximum be informed by experience—for example, how much retailers may be gaining from non-compliance. That experience can be gained only once the adjudicator is operational. Should the Secretary of State make an order to introduce fines, that order must specify the maximum penalty that may be imposed or how it is to be calculated.
I would like to discuss those points in more detail with the noble Lords who proposed the amendments before the next stage of the Bill, and the Government will carefully consider whether we want to bring back an amendment on the subject. With that, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, I understand my noble friend Lord Eccles’s reluctance to see individual retailers or complainants having to pay the costs of investigations. However, I think this is justified in both cases and take this opportunity to explain why this clause should stand part of the Bill.
In the case of retailers, they can be required to pay the costs of investigations only if the adjudicator is satisfied that they have broken the code. In this situation, the need for investigation and enforcement follows from their actions. It would seem unfair on retailers who have not breached the code to incur additional costs through a general levy when there is a party who clearly bears responsibility for the costs being incurred. I know from our debate at Second Reading that many noble Lords feel strongly that the costs should fall on those who breach the code rather than those who do not, wherever possible.
This is not a financial penalty or a blank cheque; it simply ensures that if a retailer breaches the code, the cost of the investigation can be borne by them, not by the other nine retailers. In the case of costs being borne by complainants, the Bill is clear that they can be expected to pay the costs of an investigation only if the adjudicator is satisfied that their complaint was vexatious or wholly without merit. That is a strong test directed at clearly irresponsible complainants rather than simply erroneous or weak ones. Without such a power, individuals might be motivated to make complaints that they know to be false or completely unjustified, wasting the adjudicator’s resources and placing unfair burdens on the retailers it investigates. Of course, the adjudicator should not pursue a case that he or she knows to be vexatious, but that may not be clear at the outset. That is simply a safeguard in case an investigation turns out to have been based on vexatious complaints.
Finally, I note that in each case, the clause says that the adjudicator may require a party to pay the costs of investigation. That is strictly discretionary. For instance, if a breach was found in a retailer but it was understood to be a matter of simple error, the adjudicator might decide that it would be disproportionate to require it to pay all of the costs. I hope that helps the noble Lord, and I support the Question that the clause stand part of the Bill.
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, I start with a technical question about the wording of the clause to which I am not looking for an immediate answer. It states that the adjudicator may,
“require a large retailer to pay some or all of the costs of an investigation”.
It is not self-evident that that means only the adjudicator’s costs. Of course, a lot of the cost will fall on third parties, including the retailer, and there are bound to be a lot of costs. My proposal that suspicion should be replaced with belief would go a long way to create more certainty about the adjudicator’s ability to turn down not just vexatious complaints but complaints for which there is too little evidence. It is my perception that when the Bill becomes law, a lot of cases will be brought for which the evidence will be sketchy, and the adjudicator will have to use his or her best judgment.
If those considerations can be given some thought and we can have a more—I criticise myself here—coherent and consensual discussion at the next stage, I withdraw my objection to the Question.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, providing advice and guidance will be important in the adjudicator’s role of promoting compliance with the groceries code. I understand, therefore, why my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising wishes to see a requirement on the adjudicator to provide advice and why the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, wishes such advice to be available to the public as well as to retailers and suppliers. I agree with the noble Lord, so it is important that the adjudicator clarifies certain issues around how he or she will work and indeed, how the public as well as suppliers and retailers will have an interest in this.
However, under Clause 12 the adjudicator has a duty to provide guidance on how he or she will investigate and has powers to provide further guidance on any issue related to the code. This guidance will be published and available to all. It is therefore the most suitable format for any obligatory communication by the adjudicator and is the best way for the adjudicator to deal with the public. Conversely, advice is more likely to be given on an individual basis to clarify specific issues with retailers and suppliers. It is likely to be given where the adjudicator notices that certain retailers or suppliers do not have a clear understanding of the code. It is also likely to be given to retailers or suppliers who are not sure whether a specific practice that is relevant to them is within the code. Advice is therefore suited to individual, potentially technical discussions of the code with those to whom the code is more directly relevant—suppliers and retailers. Any statements of general principles can be made through the power in Clause 12 to provide guidance, and those statements will be available to the public.
On whether the provision of advice should be mandatory, the adjudicator would normally be expected to provide advice when it is requested. However, the adjudicator will have a limited budget and will need to prioritise their work accordingly. It is therefore appropriate that they should have the freedom to choose whether in a particular instance giving advice is the best way of encouraging retailers to comply with the code. There could also be circumstances when giving advice would be inappropriate; for example, due to a conflict of interest. I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, the guidance provided by the adjudicator will help to ensure that all interested parties have a proper understanding of what they can expect of the adjudicator. Several noble Lords have brought forward amendments on what should be included in the guidance or on how that guidance should be produced.
With regard to the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Eccles, the adjudicator will already have to publish guidance on how he or she will decide which enforcement powers, if any, to use. The adjudicator will also have powers to provide more specific guidance on how exactly he or she will go about requiring a retailer in breach of the code to publish information. However, I do not believe that the adjudicator should have to publish guidance on how he or she will approach the publication of information before such investigations can be started, especially as the approach to publication might be dependent on what breach is discovered. We must balance the need for retailers and suppliers to be informed of the principles under which the adjudicator is working with the need for the adjudicator to be able to start working promptly.
The noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, has tabled two amendments that I would like to address. The first is on the requirement for the adjudicator to publish guidance on a range of matters set out in Clause 12(3). Here I note that the requirement to publish guidance in Clause 12(1) is focused on specific issues, and under Clause 12(5) the requirement to publish information is given the context of a specific timetable. The adjudicator should be required to publish guidance, and he or she has to. Clause 12(1) states:
“The Adjudicator must publish guidance about —
(a) the criteria that the Adjudicator intends to adopt in deciding whether to carry out investigations;
(b) the practices and procedures that the Adjudicator intends to adopt in carrying out investigations; and
(c) the criteria that the Adjudicator intends to adopt in choosing whether to use the enforcement powers and which ones”.
While other guidance is valuable, it is not clear what would be achieved by a general requirement to publish guidance on broad topics such as the application of any provision of the code. Rather, these overarching topics are intended to indicate likely areas of guidance and ensure that the adjudicator can give guidance when the need arises.
Regarding my noble friend’s second amendment, guidance can relate to a wide range of the adjudicator’s activities and functions. It would be inappropriate to include a requirement to consult retailers without equivalent requirements to consult supplier representatives and other interested parties, which would create further bureaucracy, something that I am sure we would all try to avoid. This change is not necessary, given that the Bill already requires the adjudicator to consult any person whom he or she considers appropriate. I hope that that is helpful to noble Lords and I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, I am not quite sure how to put this, but I think the Committee is being let down. Once again we are being told that we are starting from a zero base, that nobody knows anything about the operation of the code and that the adjudicator will start with a blank sheet of paper. The code came into effect on 4 February 2010, having been published in 2009. All 10 supermarkets have gone through the procedures that it requires them to go through. They have included it in their conditions of purchase and sale; they have appointed compliance officers; and they have made two sets of annual reports to the Office of Fair Trading. Disputes have been running in the past 24 months and disputes have been settled.
To say that there is no base of information that the Government can rely on in drafting the details of this Bill and that before deciding how guidance should be given they have to wait for the adjudicator is indefensible. I will return to this on Report. I hope that before then there is some rethinking about the position under the code, instead of us being told time and time again that it is as if the code did not exist. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have raised the important issue of what any restrictions on the sources of information under Clause 15(10) should involve. The Government hope and believe that third parties such as trade associations will provide information to the adjudicator in a responsible and helpful way and that this clause will never need to be activated. Nevertheless, it is important that we give proper scrutiny to the details of how the clause can be activated and what it should include.
The clause as drafted provides the most suitable way to restrict information. The sources that would still be allowed to provide information are those identified as most suitable by the Government following their consideration of pre-legislative scrutiny by the Business, Innovation and Skills Select Committee. These have been carefully considered as sources that could provide useful information without the risk of the adjudicator being deluged with complex but essentially weak complaints.
My noble friend Lord Eccles suggested that retailers should be included in the list of sources of information. Clearly retailers will have relevant information about whether a breach has occurred and this will be central to investigations. However, the place for this to be heard is in investigations, where the adjudicator can seek relevant information without revealing details of complaints. The decision to start an investigation is based on complaints or other information giving reasonable grounds to suspect that the code has been breached, not on an attempt to weigh all the arguments.
My noble friends Lord Razzall and Lord Teverson suggest that trade associations should be added to the list. However, trade associations are the primary group that this power to limit the sources of information is intended to address. The power has been introduced in the light of concerns that trade associations might raise complex but unjustified complaints. This could put a strain on the adjudicator’s time and resources, as well as unnecessary burdens on the retailers.
The noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Grantchester, suggest that the Secretary of State should be able to specify sources through guidance. However, such an extension would be a more serious matter than is suited for guidance, which the adjudicator must “take account of” but which is not strictly binding.
Clause 15(10) has been deliberately written to restrict the sources of information to those that are most likely to have information regarding a breach of the code. This will ensure that trade associations and other third parties have a clear incentive to act responsibly. It would be invidious to put the Secretary of State in a position where he or she had to pick which third parties or classes of third party were responsible and which were not, and such an amendment could lead to the very lobbying and campaigning that we hope to avoid.
Finally, the noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Grantchester, have also proposed an amendment to Clause 23 that is relevant here. It would mean that Clause 15(10) required an affirmative resolution. Throughout the Bill we have striven to ensure that a suitable level of parliamentary scrutiny is provided for any orders.
The Government believe that the negative procedure is suitable here as the content of the order is very clearly defined in the Bill, and because an order can be made only as the result of a triennial review involving widespread consultation. The Delegated Powers Committee considered this order specifically and confirmed that it was satisfied with our reasons for this being a negative procedure.
I hope that these answers to the amendments have been helpful. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, the duty of the adjudicator to keep complainants’ identities confidential is central to this Bill. The initial market investigation, consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny all indicated that suppliers would be reluctant to complain if they thought that they would be identified, and noble Lords have made the same point in the House. The protection of the identity of parties to arbitration is likewise important. The proposed amendments on confidentiality therefore need careful consideration.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, proposed a number of amendments with the clear aim of making the requirement on the adjudicator to maintain confidentiality as tough as possible. I agree that this needs to be a strong requirement. However, I believe that the Bill already achieves this.
Two of the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, specify that the adjudicator “must not” rather than “may not” make unauthorised disclosures of information that might break confidentiality. I am confident that “may not” and “must not” have the same force here. The words “may not” are intended to be prohibitive: the adjudicator is in either instance required to refrain from making unauthorised disclosures.
Another two amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, specify that the duty to maintain confidentiality also applies to the deputy adjudicator and any staff. I agree completely with this as a matter of principle. However, the Government are confident that the deputy adjudicator and staff seconded to the adjudicator would already be bound by the duty of confidentiality as set out in the Bill and that therefore the amendment is unnecessary.
The noble Lord’s final amendment on this clause makes any knowing breach of confidentiality by the adjudicator or his or her staff an offence and introduces fines for anyone found guilty of such an offence. I do not believe that the threat of fines is necessary to make the adjudicator act responsibly. The adjudicator will be a public authority and will be bound to take the responsibilities under Clause 18 very seriously, as well as being bound to respect the human rights to privacy of the relevant parties. It is true that there is no sanction for breach expressed in Clause 18 but a breach would be a breach of statutory duty by the adjudicator and would in principle enable a person who suffered from a breach to claim damages from the adjudicator or to seek an injunction to prevent the disclosure if the person knew in advance.
I do not think that my noble friend Lord Eccles will be speaking to his amendments.
Baroness Wilcox
I therefore would ask the noble Lord, Lord Browne, to withdraw his amendment.
Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL]
Debate between Viscount Eccles and Baroness Wilcox(12 years, 5 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, I do not know if this will help or at least shorten what I need to say in the debate on whether Clause 2 should stand part of the Bill. I want to consider what the situation is and has been since 4 February 2010. The dispute resolution scheme is set out in the code in Part 5. Paragraph 11(5), of course, does not conform to the Bill. It states:
“The arbitration will be administered by the Ombudsman, if established. In the event that the Ombudsman is not established, or has a conflict of interest in relation to a particular Dispute, the arbitration will be administered by a single arbitrator appointed in accordance with the Rules of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators in force for the time being.”
My understanding would be that it is a contractual obligation of the retailers that that is included in their contracts with their suppliers, exactly as I have read it out. It goes on in 11(6) to say:
“To the extent that they do not conflict with this Article 11, the arbitration will be conducted in accordance with the Rules of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators in force for the time being”;
and in 11(9):
“Nothing in this Article will prevent a Designated Retailer including in a Supply Agreement a right for the Designated Retailer also to refer a Dispute to arbitration if the Dispute is not resolved … within 21 days”.
We need to know what the present situation is with the operation of the code. If the arrangements which have been set out with care by the Competition Commission, and included in the order are working perfectly well then I am bemused as to why the adjudicator would ever want to play any part in arbitration at all. I cannot see why it would be sensible for the adjudicator to play any part, because it is all there. Surely the adjudicator is to monitor whether these arrangements are working satisfactorily?
It may be, of course, that the further sophistication suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, would also be a sensible thing to do. I have no view on that; I am not sufficiently expert. However, I cannot understand—and I need to be given some sort of comfort—why the adjudicator is involved in arbitration, as opposed to simply taking note of the fact that arbitration is taking place, and probably coming to a view as to whether, when it took place, it was a satisfactory procedure or not?
Baroness Wilcox
The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, has raised an important question that it is well worth us examining closely. It is correct that the adjudicator will have two separate main roles. One will involve arbitration, as set out in Clauses 2 and 3 of the Bill. The other will involve investigations and is set out primarily in Clauses 4 to 10 of the Bill. Both roles will be carried out fairly and impartially. The two functions will be distinct from each other and it is important, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne said, that they remain so in order to prevent any conflict of interest.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked whether the adjudicator would always be conflicted. Not necessarily. If arbitration is sought on a subject where the adjudicator has not carried out an investigation or given advice, it is likely that there would be no conflict of interest. We do not consider it inherent in the functions of the adjudicator that he or she will be conflicted in carrying out arbitrations.
It is important to remember that the adjudicator will carry out all their functions fairly and impartially. It is not the role of the adjudicator to act as an advocate for suppliers in carrying out investigations, but it is possible that conflicts will arise in particular cases, and the Bill provides the flexibility to deal with each situation as it arises. The Government consider that Clause 2(1)(b) in particular will help ensure that the distinction between the adjudicator’s arbitration and investigation functions is maintained and that any conflicts of interest are prevented. This clause allows the adjudicator to appoint another person to arbitrate a dispute. The Government envisage that this will be used in cases where a conflict of interest may exist, for example where the adjudicator has previously advised on, or investigated, an issue which is relevant to the dispute. To assist the noble Lord, Lord Browne, the powers to arbitrate are applied at the request of the supplier or retailer. No previous investigation is actually needed.
The adjudicator will be required to act responsibly and will refer any cases where a conflict may arise. However, in cases where there is no conflict of interest, the Government believe that it is sensible to allow the adjudicator to arbitrate. This was envisaged by the Competition Commission in its drafting of the groceries supply order. The adjudicator will, after all, probably be the single most experienced person in the workings of the code.
On the proposed procedure for appointing an arbitrator, I do not consider it necessary to set this out in the Bill. As the Explanatory Notes explain, in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, Section 94 of the Arbitration Act 1996 will broadly apply the provisions of Part 1 of that Act to any arbitrations carried out under the groceries supply order and this Bill. In Scotland, Section 16 of the Arbitration (Scotland) Act 2010 will broadly have a similar effect in applying the Scottish arbitration rules.
The arbitration legislation which will apply to arbitrations by the adjudicator or a person appointed by the adjudicator includes protections on fairness and impartiality, including an ability for parties to apply to the court to remove an arbitrator on those grounds. The adjudicator can of course be expected to satisfy himself or herself either that they can carry out an arbitration themselves fairly and impartially, or that the person they appoint will do so, but there is a safeguard in the arbitration legislation if, for some reason, that does not happen properly.
I wanted to respond to my noble friend Lord Eccles, and have now found the speaking note for that. The groceries supply order has already established a dispute resolution scheme for disputes arising between a particular retailer and a particular direct supplier under the groceries code. The order anticipates that the adjudicator, referred to there as the “ombudsman”, will arbitrate these disputes. This will both ensure that the disputes are arbitrated by an individual with a high level of expertise in the sector and will allow the adjudicator to gain a greater understanding of how the code is operating that will be helpful when carrying out his or her functions, such as providing advice or preparing the annual report. I hope that that is helpful.
I hope that these rather long but, we felt, necessary explanations have proved satisfactory to noble Lords. While I would of course be happy to speak further to the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, about this matter, I ask him to withdraw his amendment at this stage.
Viscount Eccles
I am only talking about expectations. It is up to Members of the Committee to make up their minds as to where the expectations that might arise as a result of this Bill being enacted lie. We all make up our own minds. In conclusion, I would much prefer it, and I think that it would be much in the public interest, if Clause 2 did not stand part of the Bill.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Eccles has already made clear that he believes that the adjudicator’s function should be given to the Office of Fair Trading. The Government disagree and consider that with arbitration, just as with investigations, there is merit in establishing a dedicated, independent office which can build up a high level of expertise in the groceries market. I have already discussed this issue in some depth in response to previous groupings and have set out why we have made the provisions for the adjudicator to arbitrate.
The groceries supply order has already established a dispute resolution scheme for disputes arising between a particular retailer and a particular direct supplier under the groceries code. The order anticipates that the adjudicator—referred to there as the “ombudsman”—will arbitrate these disputes. This will ensure that disputes are arbitrated by an individual with a high level of expertise in the sector and allow the adjudicator to gain a greater understanding of how the code is operating that will be helpful when carrying out his or her functions, such as providing advice or preparing the annual report.
In response to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Eccles on whether the Bill will override existing arbitration clauses, the order already gives a right to suppliers to arbitration in accordance with Article 2 of the order. The Bill simply allows the adjudicator to carry out that arbitration role where appropriate. Similarly, with regard to Amendment 16, the purpose of Clause 3(1) is to increase the expertise of the adjudicator—something that will benefit both retailers and suppliers. It is entirely reasonable that just because the adjudicator has not acted as an arbitrator he or she should continue to have access to the information from that dispute. This clause provides the adjudicator with the means of obtaining it. Therefore, with that explanation, although I know it will not please him, I hope that it will persuade him to allow Clause 2 to stand part of the Bill.
Viscount Eccles
I am grateful to my noble friend. Perhaps I may ask whether that last comment was on Part 2 of the code of practice, which does not seem to mention arbitration.
Baroness Wilcox
The order already gives the right to suppliers to arbitration, in accordance with Article 11. I am sorry, did I say Article 2?
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, I will read out a sentence that is relevant to my amendment and also to the one we have just discussed. The Minister stated:
“After careful consideration, the Government have decided not to restrict the information that the adjudicator can consider”.—[Official Report, 22/5/2012; col. 726.]
That is entirely right. It is a free country, with free speech and so on. However, at the other end of the story, if we were to get into a situation where it was found that something had been brought forward that turned out to be vexatious, it would represent a failure and would be proof that the Bill was not working as well as it should.
I am mindful of the warning of Professor Lyons that he was not at all sure that the investigation potential was all that large, because of the length of the supply chain and because the adjudicator may investigate whether a large retailer has broken the groceries code. That is quite a narrow ground on which to mount an investigation.
In my amendment I put forward the argument that we should take out “suspect” and put in “believe”. There is a lot of hearsay and suspicion in the world, and in the way in which people think about the way supermarkets behave. When considering several Bills recently the House had no problem accepting that “suspect” was too weak and that we should “believe” before we start engaging in the expenditure of public money. I also think that it would be a protection for the adjudicator. This business of investigation is delicate and the adjudicator will have quite a hard time with it.
It is not an answer to say that Amendment 24 is irrelevant, because I think that the Office of Fair Trading should persist. That is my preference but of course I am capable of accepting that we should debate this on the basis that there will be an adjudicator, even though I want to see the continuation of the OFT. The adjudicator would welcome the protection of having to say that he or she “believed” that they had reasonable grounds rather than just “suspected”. I beg to move.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, the amendment would alter the criterion for starting an investigation so that the adjudicator would have to have reasonable grounds to believe that there had been a breach of the code, rather than reasonable grounds to suspect, before beginning an investigation. The decision on what threshold is needed is always difficult. However, we should consider what is being decided here. It is not guilt, liability or a sanction of any kind. All that is being decided is whether the adjudicator should begin an investigation that will allow him or her to decide, based on the results of the investigation, whether there has been a breach of the code. At this early stage of the process, the term “suspect” rather than “believe” has to be correct, particularly as the adjudicator generally will not benefit from the information powers set out in Schedule 2 until an investigation has started, and so may not be able to establish grounds for belief.
With that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will see fit to withdraw his amendment.
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, I thank my noble friend, although I will come back to the matter because I am not satisfied. I should like to point out that the minute an investigation begins, it threatens a supermarket with an unexpected cost. Starting an investigation is quite a serious matter and is not to be undertaken lightly. The word “believe” should be included in the prelude to an investigation. I also think, given the amount of information that would already be available and will become available to the adjudicator, it should not be too much of a problem to ensure that there is some certainty that the matter is worth investigating. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL]
Debate between Viscount Eccles and Baroness Wilcox
Baroness Wilcox
We are basing this on the Competition Commission’s evidence.
A concern was raised about the creation of a new regulatory body and I mention in particular the noble Lords, Lord Haskel and Lord Plumb. The Government are committed to reducing the overall burden of regulation on business. We are not creating a new bureaucracy but appointing an individual to be the adjudicator. I hope I can reassure the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich and my noble friend Lady Byford that the small, agile staff will be effective. We will, however, be watching all the way through—this also relates to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—to see that the office has the capacity to work with such large supermarket chains.
The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, thought that arbitration was more vital than the adjudicator’s investigations. I can reassure him that the adjudicator will be able to arbitrate disputes concerning individual suppliers as well as investigate complaints.
In response to the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, it is correct that the adjudicator probably would not arbitrate himself or herself where he or she had previously carried out an investigation into a similar issue, due to the risk of a conflict of interest. However, in that case the adjudicator would simply appoint a different arbitrator, and the Bill provides for this in Clause 2.
My noble friend Lord Eccles suggested that the Competition Commission was lukewarm in its support for the adjudicator. The commission said clearly in paragraph 11.375 that all but one member of the investigation panel considered the adjudicator to be essential for the monitoring and enforcement of the code, but all six members of the Competition Commission group who investigated groceries agreed that,
“the transfer of excessive risks or unexpected costs by grocery retailers to their suppliers is likely to lessen suppliers’ incentive to invest in new capacity, products and production processes … if unchecked, these practices would ultimately have a detrimental effect on consumers”.
Viscount Eccles
I nearly accept the Minister’s description of what I said, but this Competition Commission finding was made in 2008. It is now 2012. I asked, and will ask again, whether there is any evidence that the adverse effect which they predicted in 2008 is in fact coming about.
Baroness Wilcox
I do not have the answer before me, but I will most certainly write to my noble friend.
The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, suggested that the adjudicator should more accurately be called an ombudsman. Such a description is not to be used in this case because it would be contrary to the guidance of the ombudsmen’s society, because ombudsmen deal with business-to-consumer disputes.
The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked whether there should be a further investigation into the practices of intermediaries. A decision to refer a market to the Competition Commission for investigation is a matter for the Office of Fair Trading, and any concerns would be raised with it. However, the question of keeping the code a living document is a matter that I should like to continue to explore in Committee, if the noble Lord is happy with that.
We heard complaints, including from the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that the Bill has been delayed. I know that it has been keenly anticipated and I recognise noble Lords’ eagerness for it to have been introduced. However, we have not delayed in this. The 2008 report did not lead to an immediate Bill, but I would not criticise the previous Government for that because they were attempting to get the retailers themselves to create the adjudicator. That is why there seems to have been a delay—it was not in our time. Since the election, we prioritised this measure for pre-legislative scrutiny during the first Session, and introduced it on the first day possible of this new Session. I hope that noble Lords will work with us on the Bill and that we will see an adjudicator in place next year.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and my noble friend Lord Razzall suggested that the way in which the levy to fund the adjudicator is divided between retailers should be reconsidered by annual review. The Secretary of State will be able to assess, as the evidence unfolds, how the levy should be divided to ensure that those who create most trouble pay more.
Concern was raised by my noble friends Lord Razzall and Lady Byford about the few instances where confidentiality might not be completely guaranteed. We believe that confidentiality will be vital to the adjudicator’s investigations. The circumstances in which the identity of a complainant might be revealed without their consent are strictly limited by Clause 18. We believe that this would happen in exceptional circumstances. That will perhaps become more apparent when we go through the Bill in Committee. The Government will be engaging with suppliers to ensure that they understand the rules on confidentiality. We are confident about their ability to complain.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, expressed concern over the Secretary of State’s power to restrict the sources that can complain to the adjudicator. We believe that it is important that trade associations are incentivised to act responsibly for the sake of both suppliers and retailers. I will be happy to discuss this further in Committee.
Noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Plumb and the noble Lords, Lord Palmer and Lord Grantchester, demonstrated a close interest in the question of sanctions. I agree that getting right the sanctions available to the adjudicator is critical. I know that we will continue to explore this issue.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, my noble friends Lord Razzall and Lady Randerson, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich suggested that the process of consultation on fines could be streamlined. Our intention is for the fining power to be introduced promptly, if necessary, but also to ensure that its introduction is based on proper consideration of the evidence. I shall be very happy to discuss with noble Lords how the details of the Bill can ensure that such a power is delivered.
I seem to be answering a lot of questions from the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and my noble friend Lord Razzall. Perhaps it is because they asked them early on. I have a lot of answers here. I shall try not to respond to them too much again because I am not responding to some other noble Lords.
An important question was asked about what consumers think of the adjudicator, I think by my noble friend Lord Eccles. A poll by War on Want last year found that 84% of consumers support the establishment of the adjudicator. The general public have a keen sense of fair play and do not like to see farmers and suppliers being exploited in any way by anyone. At the same time, they, too, wish to see fairness in our dealings. Consumers are, of course, the ultimate beneficiaries from a stronger and more competitive groceries market.
Many thoughtful and incisive points were raised today, and I hope that I have been able to address some of them. Obviously, I will write to noble Lords on any of the questions that I have not been able to answer. I am sure that we will continue to explore these and other issues in Committee and on Report.
I have in my time supplied supermarkets with chilled food, before any code or the prospect of an adjudicator. In those days, the 1980s and 1990s, there was no written contract for chilled food, and I had no written contract to go to the banks to raise money. It was not easy to get them to say that they would buy something for you at that time, so I would have loved to have had a code and an adjudicator. Yet it was very exciting to supply to a large supermarket group. We were only a small to medium-sized company. At that time the supermarket groups were very worried about having very few suppliers, and they did the best they could to make sure they had a large range of suppliers and to help us to overcome the barriers to supplying so much.
However, I also remember the dreaded special offers. When they arrived, it was extremely difficult for us to fulfil them without having to work through the night and putting on extra shifts. Any profits that we made in those two weeks went out of the door with all the staff we had to engage. That was the price of having contracts, not even written ones, with very large supermarket groups. If I had to give any advice to a company starting to deal with them, I would say that the excitement of a contract should be resisted until you fully recognise the terms and conditions and the implications of what they mean to you, because they are very big contracts that you are taking on and they happen regularly every week.
This Bill appeared in three major parties’ manifestos. I hope that those of all parties and noble Lords on the Cross Benches will wish to ensure that the adjudicator protects suppliers, including farmers, from any unfair dealing, and does so without needless disruption to commercial arrangements. I look forward to my noble friends Lord Howard and Lord Eccles and the noble Lord, Lord Myners, taking part in Committee so that together we can ensure that this Bill delivers on our aims and achieves the best possible outcome for the grocery supply chain as a whole. Fair market practice from the supplier through the retailer to the consumer is exactly what we want from the biggest industry in this country.
Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Postal Services Bill
Debate between Viscount Eccles and Baroness Wilcox
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, I am a bit bothered about the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Young, spoke to because of the great difficulty for anybody to define “effective competition” in a statutory way. The competitive market for communications is very complicated. Ofcom is a very big and well established regulator that no doubt understands that market better than Postcomm did, but Ofcom still has to determine the regulatory framework that it is to follow. Work is going on in the last days of Postcomm that will not be completed until next year.
That is not the only point. Effective competition includes digital competition. Many other means of communication have been developed that have superseded the forked stick, and I think that this amendment is a step too far. I cannot support it.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, Amendment 60 would place a new duty on Ofcom to have regard to the need to avoid regulation where market forces and effective competition allow. I understand the rationale behind this amendment. Indeed, the Government firmly believe that the regulatory regime going forward needs to be as light touch as possible. This was made clear by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills who, in a recent letter on the subject to the chairs of Ofcom and Postcomm, stated:
“Given the seriousness of the problems facing Royal Mail, I believe that a comprehensive reassessment of the regulatory regime is required in the light of developments in the postal and communications sectors to … look again at where regulation is needed”,
and,
“determine what form that regulation should take if required”.
While sharing the view that regulation must be as light touch as possible, we believe that a duty such as the one imposed by Amendment 60 goes too far and could have some very undesirable consequences. These undesirable consequences could come about because there may be real reasons why it might not always be possible for the universal service provider to be allowed to respond to market dynamics, as my noble friend Lord Eccles has said. For example, there is the requirement to provide the universal service at an affordable and uniform price. However competitive the market may be, it is by no means certain that market dynamics would force the universal service provider to meet those requirements. As such, Ofcom may need to regulate to some degree to ensure that these requirements are met even if there were a fully competitive market across the full range of postal services.
Finally, I would like to remind your Lordships that Ofcom is already under a duty to keep regulatory burdens to a minimum under Section 6 of the Communications Act 2003. I hope that this will reassure the noble Lord, Lord Young, and that he will feel able to withdraw this amendment at the appropriate time and to support the government amendment in this group. I beg to move.
Postal Services Bill
Debate between Viscount Eccles and Baroness Wilcox(13 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Viscount Eccles
Very briefly, I recall that 55 years ago, I used to be responsible for making 5 foot 8 inch diameter tunnel sections for the GPO tunnel system. The firm was called Head Wrightson, and it made many tonnes of the segments that made up the tunnel. There is no question of them deteriorating. As with the Northern line, which is older, they will be there for ever, because in London clay, cast iron has an almost infinite life. You will notice that when the Underground does things on old lines, it does not have to replace the tunnels.
On a more serious point, I urge my noble friend to have serious thought about the non-public records part—what could be loosely described as the stamp collection. It would be a great shame if it were not kept coherent and whole. I do not know if that can be achieved by some partnership agreement with the British Museum, for example, or some other imaginative idea about who would undertake some combined financial responsibility—perhaps partly charitable and partly public money. It would be a great shame if it was not kept together.
Baroness Wilcox
I will of course add the comments of the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, to those that we have already heard in this debate. They will form part of our discussion before we come back at Report.
Postal Services Bill
Debate between Viscount Eccles and Baroness Wilcox
Viscount Eccles
My Lords, we can only admire the way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, put forward her amendments. She has carried out a lot of due diligence and her speech was wholly admirable. However, my problem with it is—noble Lords will guess that I have a problem with it—that I do not see any way of removing uncertainty now or in the medium term or, as she suggested, in three or four years. I hope that that pessimistic estimate turns out to be wrong and that this matter is resolved in a lot less time than four years.
The uncertainty arises primarily from the behaviour of the market. We have talked a bit about other privatisations. The steel industry was mentioned. That industry was in decline when it was privatised. However, the opposite was the case with British Telecom. A lot of our experience of privatisations is highly coloured by the market conditions prevailing at the time. If what I have picked up turns out to be true, one of the issues which faces a mail operator is to find new streams of business and not to rely just on the mail and the universal obligation to deliver it at the same price to every household in the country. That brings me to one of the uncertainties about any deal that might be proposed by the Royal Mail to the Secretary of State as being a deal that he or she might wish to approve. I think that I have mentioned this before. There could be two bidders—there might even be three—with very different solutions. It is not a question of there being one deal. In a negotiation you may well find that not only is there more than one bidder but their bids are so different that you have to have two completely separate sets of due diligence to make sense of them and to make a recommendation to the Secretary of State. As I see it, that is the way that this matter will go forward.
In those circumstances I am very doubtful about the role of Parliament except in an ex-post involvement through the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee, as my noble friend on the Front Bench said earlier. Then Parliament will have its opportunity to say whether it thinks that the Secretary of State made a good or bad decision in backing one of the recommendations made to him or her. Parliament will have to be satisfied with an ex-post role.
As regards the super-affirmative procedure and the 60 day period, 60 days is a long time for a bid to remain open without being reneged on or altered. In my opinion it simply is not practical to think that any bidder will be willing to go through this process. Given my past experience of buying and selling businesses, if I was faced with these amendments in the Bill, I think that I would say, “Please will you assure me that this part of the Bill is not going to be triggered because if it is my bid is withdrawn?” or I would not enter the negotiation in the first place. The intentions behind these amendments are absolutely clear to all of us and if the circumstances of the Royal Mail and the mail market were entirely different we might be able to live with such a procedure. However, I do not think that we can live with it in these circumstances.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, this group of amendments seeks to add to the Bill a requirement for the Secretary of State to make an Oral Statement and obtain additional parliamentary approval before there can be a relevant disposal of shares in a Royal Mail company.
Amendment 5 of the noble Lord, Lord Young, proposes that an order on the disposal should be subject to the affirmative procedure. The noble Baroness’s Amendments 6 and 17 seek to insert into the Bill a requirement for a super-affirmative procedure before there can be a disposal of shares. Like my noble friend Lord Eccles, I congratulate her on the thoroughness of these amendments which set out clearly the process that is required under the super-affirmative procedure. The noble Baroness may be new to your Lordships’ House but from these amendments it is clear that her knowledge and attention to detail will ensure that its business receives proper and close scrutiny in the years to come. I congratulate her on that. From my noble friend Lord Eccles we received a master class in how to buy and sell businesses. I suspect that I shall lean on him heavily as this Bill goes through to make speeches like that again.
I do not believe that further parliamentary procedures should be required before there can be a disposal of shares in Royal Mail. A committee in the other place has fully debated the disposal of shares as set out in this Bill and this Committee of the Whole House is now debating the issue. The disposal of shares to enable an injection of private capital into Royal Mail is part of a package of measures set out in this Bill which should be scrutinised as a package. The disposal of shares should not be looked at in isolation but alongside the other two essential parts of the package—tackling the pension deficit and reforming the regulatory regime. Richard Hooper emphasised the importance of this package when he gave evidence to the committee in the other place. The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked about the timetable for state aid clearance. We have not at this stage notified the European Commission of the proposed aid but we will do so as soon as we are ready. As I said earlier, this Government have learnt the lessons of 2009. We will take a staged approach to all the steps we need to take before a sale can be completed.
The Opposition’s Postal Services Bill in 2009 did not include a requirement for additional parliamentary procedures before there could be a disposal of shares. As noble Lords opposite themselves said in 2009, additional parliamentary procedures would be unwelcome because they would create uncertainty for potential investors. During the passage of that Bill, noble Lords representing the then Government suggested that noble Lords would agree that the appropriate place for commercial negotiations to take place was not on the Floor of the House.
Noble Lords opposite have expressed interest in the value of Royal Mail. The uncertainty that would exist if a disposal is subject to voting in Parliament would only further reduce the value of the business. This would damage the chances of achieving the best deal for the taxpayer and the company from any future disposal. I fail to see how this amendment fits with other amendments tabled by noble Lords where there has been an emphasis to take forward a sale of shares quickly. These amendments would insert time-consuming mechanisms that would add delay to a disposal.
With regard to legislative provision for the Secretary of State to make an Oral Statement, we do not think that is necessary whenever there is a sale of shares. The Bill is setting the minimum requirements for government action. What is important is the principle that information on this sale should be provided to Parliament. The requirement for a report in Clause 2 applies not only to the first sale of shares but any subsequent sale of shares. I fully accept that an Oral Statement might, of course, be appropriate for the first sale of shares, but would it also be a good use of time if, for instance, five years later Ministers decided to put an extra 100 shares into the employee share scheme? We are committing in Clause 2 that there should be a report to Parliament every time the Government reduce their stake in Royal Mail. We will, of course, discuss with the House authorities the appropriate format for such reports at the relevant times, including whether or not an Oral Statement is appropriate.
Finally, the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, asks in her amendments for evidence of consultation and an impact assessment. I point the noble Baroness to the extensive consultation carried out by Richard Hooper in his two independent reviews on the future of the Royal Mail and the impact assessment published alongside the Bill. On this basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Eccles
I must say that the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, said that with great charm. However, what will we do in Parliament if the bidder says that he will not make his bid unconditional if the matter is to be submitted to Parliament?
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, the amendment seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State lays a report before Parliament before there is a sale of shares. I shall talk quickly, because I am worried about the blandishments of the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, influencing me before I reach the end. I believe that the drafting of the clause makes it clear that the report should be laid before a disposal of shares is made. The clause requires the Secretary of State to lay a report as soon as reasonably practicable after a decision has been made to undertake a sale of shares.
The arrangements needed to organise a disposal of shares in Royal Mail to a trade buyer through a competition or to conduct a public flotation would take several months. It would not be the case that the Secretary of State would decide over breakfast to sell shares in Royal Mail and then complete the sale by the time we in this House enjoy our evening dinner. It simply would not happen that way. The starting gun for work on the specific arrangements for a sale would be a decision by the Secretary of State to undertake a sale. Under the Bill, the Secretary of State has to lay a report before Parliament as soon as reasonably practicable after a decision is taken to dispose of shares. This would be before a sale of shares. I therefore kindly ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.