Queen’s Speech

Viscount Bridgeman Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Bridgeman (Con)]

My Lords, I trust that your Lordships will forgive me for wandering slightly off piste in the context of this debate, because I wish to speak about the problem of marriages under sharia law in this country and, in particular, the fate of Muslim women seeking a religious divorce or being subject to a divorce by their husbands. At the outset, I pay tribute to the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, who has been tireless in her efforts to improve the lot of this potentially vulnerable section of society. She is unable to speak in this debate as she has committed to speaking elsewhere in the debate on the humble Address.

This is not an insignificant issue. In 2017, a Channel 4 survey found that 60% of Muslim women who have had traditional Islamic weddings in Britain are not legally married. Of these, 28% are unaware of the fact that they do not have the same legal rights as someone with a civilly registered marriage. The absolute figures are alarming: as many as 100,000 couples in Britain are estimated to be living in religious-only marriages, and this number will only increase.

The roots of this most unsatisfactory state of affairs have been raised many times in your Lordships’ House, but when it comes to Muslim women being subject to a divorce, cases of real cruelty become apparent. Let me mention briefly a few of the factors affecting this, the first of which is the largely unregulated use of sharia law. I understand that sharia courts can be set up with little formality by any member of the Muslim community, and it comes as little surprise that the application and interpretation of sharia law can vary widely. The problem can be exacerbated in the many cases where women may not be aware of their legal rights and may well have language problems. Then there is the extreme shame which a Muslim woman in a divorce situation can be subjected to, both within her family and in the community. I have to say that, regrettably, the police have sometimes not come up to their proper responsibilities because of their concern about race relations implications.

May I give an instance which is not atypical of the problems facing Muslim women seeking a divorce? It is not anecdotal. A Muslim woman, at huge risk to her family relationships, appeared at one of the landmark meetings of the noble Baroness, Lady Cox. A sharia court disregarded a British court order put in place to protect a woman and her children from a violent husband. When the sharia court arranged a mediation session, it heard the husband’s testimony without requiring proof. By contrast, from the woman they required two witnesses to confirm her case, because, coming from only one woman, her testimony was seen as being worth less.

I now come to the position of my friends in the Government. The Government continue to claim that there is no need for a change in the law because all citizens can access their rights according to law, yet the chasm between the de jure and the de facto is an abyss into which countless women are falling and suffering as a result.

We are not short of enlightened advice on this matter. The Independent Review into the Application of Sharia Law in England and Wales reported as long ago as February 2018. That perceptive document made a number of important recommendations, the most basic of which was that the Marriage Act 1949 and the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 needed to be amended:

“The changes are to ensure that civil marriages are conducted before or at the same time as the Islamic marriage ceremony, bringing Islamic marriage in line with Christian and Jewish marriage in the eyes of the law.”


This could not be clearer. Another helpful report echoing the same long-overdue need to bring British law into the 21st century

“to reflect the diversity of beliefs and practices”

in modern society has come from the Nuffield Foundation. I am pleased to note that the Law Commission will be taking that into account in its own report, which I understand is due in July.

The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, has been indefatigable in pursuing this matter for the past 11 years. She is to be congratulated on her creation of a not-for-profit organisation, Equal and Free, that seeks to champion the rights of British Muslim women who do not yet—I repeat “yet”—have the protection of legal marriage. A number of her Written Questions have received near-identical responses to the effect that the Government are awaiting the outcome of the Law Commission’s wedding project—they cannot delay on this now—which I understand is due in July, as I have said. The nine Private Members’ Bills she has introduced in the last 11 years, though receiving cross-party support, have not received a meaningful government response. Of these nine Bills, the Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill did get as far as the Commons, where it ran out of time.

The issue of religious-only marriages has been raised by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and, surprisingly, the Grand Mufti of Egypt. In 2018, this Government committed in the Integrated Communities Strategy Green Paper to

“explore the legal and practical challenges of limited reform relating to the law on marriage and religious weddings.”

So far, this commitment has not been followed by action. I therefore ask my noble friend the Minister for an assurance that the Government will not delay any further in acting on the Law Commission’s report and will, in the next Session, bring forward legislation—the admirably simple template for which is the Marriage Act 1949 (Amendment) Bill, reintroduced in 2021 by the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and awaiting a Second Reading. This is an open-clause Bill to:

“Amend the Marriage Act 1949 to create an offence of purporting to solemnize an unregistered marriage.”


Its simple message is that all future marriages in the United Kingdom will require to be registered. What could be simpler than that?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I respectfully remind the House that the Back-Bench advisory speaking time is six minutes. Thank you.

Justice and Home Affairs: United Kingdom Opt-Outs

Viscount Bridgeman Excerpts

Thursday 17th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Bridgeman (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I may echo the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, about the infernal mechanism by which the Government inherited the opt-in opt-out measures perceived by those outside these Houses and in Whitehall as a sort of vacillation. As the noble Lord said, the Government had no option but to take account of these.

My right honourable friend Theresa May put it succinctly in a Statement in another place in July 2013 when she said:

“For reasons of policy, principle and pragmatism, I believe that it is in the national interest to exercise the United Kingdom’s opt-out, and rejoin a much smaller set of measures that help us to co-operate with our European neighbours in the fight against serious and organised crime. I also believe that Her Majesty’s Government must strike the right balance between supporting law enforcement and protecting our traditional liberties”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/7/13; col. 180.]

From the remarks made by my noble friend the Minister, I am pleased that the Government are taking some cautious steps towards achieving that aim.

In view of the Minister’s remarks, some of what follows may be slightly historic. In the past, objections were raised about a potential loss of control of domestic police and criminal justice authority. Opponents were also concerned that the UK’s common-law tradition would be undermined. It is the view of Sub-Committee F that both these measures are in the national interest and are vital to our national security. We also argue that the measures would provide the benefits of legal clarity, making a stronger and more consistent application of measures throughout the EU.

The experience so far is that there is no risk to the common-law tradition from any police and criminal justice measures or judgments. Withdrawing from either Europol or the EAW would result in the UK having to rely on less effective means of co-operation and a series of bilateral agreements, and a loss of influence over future criminal justice policy. It is the view of the sub-committee that these police and criminal justice measures have an important role to play alongside domestic courts in safeguarding the rights of citizens and upholding the rule of law.

Europol has undergone a most effective period under the direction of Mr Rob Wainwright of the United Kingdom. With the increasing development of global crime, the sharing of data and intelligence is absolutely essential. Should we be outside Europol, any sharing of data would be a matter of concessions and good will, which would be a far from satisfactory means of operating. I am pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Blair, in his place, as well as seeing the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, earlier in this debate. I read the transcript of Mr Wainwright’s evidence and he was specific that the measures being taken in Europol had the complete support of the national chiefs of police in the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, the possible ceding of domestic police powers is a sensitive issue with the public, and I should welcome the Minister’s assurance that in the opt-in negotiations Europol will not be given the power to direct police forces of the United Kingdom.

Much has been said in this debate about the European arrest warrant. This has been in operation for some 16 years. Let us be clear that this is not the perfect system for apprehending and repatriating criminals across EU borders. There have certainly been cases of pre-trial detention in poor prison conditions—but these could occur under any alternative systems of extradition. I am convinced that as it now stands the EAW works well. Any other system would inevitably make the extradition more protracted and cumbersome, potentially undermining public safety. The great advantage of the EAW as it has been developed is its speed. Extradition from countries such as Spain, which in pre-EAW days would have taken years, can now be accomplished in a matter of weeks.

I must remind your Lordships that this measure has over the years of its existence been progressively refined. For example, the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act, to which my noble friend Lord Stoneham referred, contains measures to ensure that an arrest warrant can be refused for minor cases. The European investigation order can be used to enforce fines, where police forces and prosecutors can share evidence and information without requiring the extradition of a subject at the investigation stage.

The prisoner transfer framework decision, also referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, can be used to enable UK citizens extradited to and convicted in EU member states to be returned to the UK to serve their sentences here. In certain circumstances the EAW issued in other member states can with their permission be withdrawn, and this measure can be used to enable sentences to be served in the UK. The mechanism also makes use of the growing practice of videoconferencing, for instance. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, referred to the European supervision order. I will take this opportunity to say that the noble Lord gave tremendous leadership to our committee—and in my case a great degree of education. This mantle has been taken on with great distinction by the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar.

In our follow-up report on EU police and criminal justice measures and the UK’s 2014 opt-out decision, we made it clear that there were a number of other measures that the UK should seek to rejoin. These measures have been discussed at length in this debate. The report concluded:

“We are concerned that the Government have given insufficient consideration to the possible substantive and reputational damage of not seeking to rejoin these measures”.

I noted the letter to my noble friend Lord Boswell from my right honourable friends the Home Secretary and the Lord Chancellor. They have addressed some of these concerns. In particular I am pleased that the Government will seek to rejoin the European Judicial Network, which was one of the recommendations in our report. My noble friend’s reply to the letter from my right honourable friends drew attention to a number of documentary points that needed clarification—I say that with some delicacy—and in particular to the remarks in their letter on the deal reached “in principle” and to the,

“technical reservations expressed by some member states”.

Like my noble friend, I await with interest the clarification from my noble friend the Minister.

I am grateful for the Minister’s assurance that there will be full parliamentary scrutiny of the progress of these negotiations. I am grateful also that we have been assured of this and, with other noble Lords, that this House will be included in these debates.

EU Police and Criminal Justice Measures: EUC Reports

Viscount Bridgeman Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Bridgeman (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for this debate and pay tribute to the clerks—Michael Torrance and Chris Atkinson, and especially the special adviser Paul Dowling—for the very personal help they have given me. Also, what a privilege it has been to have the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, working so well with this sub-committee.

I have particular pleasure in following the noble Lord, Lord Blair, because I want to say something more about Europol, which is of course one of the success stories of the EU. Let us be thankful that it at least is one of the measures we propose to opt in to. From its beginning in the 1990s, Europol has developed into an organisation with an unrivalled intelligence base and close co-operation with the police forces of the European Union and indeed round the world, examples of which the noble Lord gave. It is fortunate currently to have an outstanding director, Rob Wainwright of the United Kingdom, from whom Sub-Committees E and F heard evidence on two occasions in 2013.

It is important to note that no national police sovereignty is ceded to Europol. The role of Europol is purely supportive. Its effectiveness centres round its database, to which the UK is the largest contributor. Of its many successes in cross-border operations, Mr Wainwright cited Operation Rescue over two years, which involved 32 national police forces in breaking up an internet child abuse ring resulting in over 100 arrests. Another measure of its success is the number of states outside the European Union queuing up to join Europol, including the United States. A particular feature of the Europol set-up is the establishment of national liaison offices within its headquarters, staffed by police officers from each particular member state. Most importantly, it is run on a very lean budget of 0.8% of the total EU budget.

As I have said, the Government have made the decision to opt in to Europol. However, at our first meeting with Mr Wainwright in January 2013—that is, before the Home Secretary’s announcement—both Sub-Committees E and F, because it was a joint meeting, were left in no doubt of the adverse consequences there would have been for the UK had we not opted in. Denial of automatic access to the database would have been a huge handicap involving costly and time-consuming negotiations between the UK, the union and other parties to establish some form of substitute relationship, and it is reasonable to assume that crime prevention with a cross-border element would have been severely affected in the United Kingdom. Of course, none of this will now be necessary so, so far, I have little to criticise the Minister on.

I return to a point referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. I would just point out that Sub-Committee F expressed disappointment with the Government that, having made the decision, they have chosen not to opt in fully forthwith so that they can play a fuller part in negotiations over a new Europol structure. The Government’s reply to this criticism in our report advises,

“we are actively seeking changes to the new Europol proposal to address these points before making a decision on whether to opt in”.

It goes on:

“We are currently fully engaged in negotiations and continue to work with other Member States to push for the changes we need. We have been present at all meetings when changes to the draft legislation have been discussed and are able to intervene as and when we wish”.

I cannot avoid further quoting so that we sleep easy in our beds:

“While we do not have a vote, other Member States and the EU Institutions value our experience in this area and take our concerns very seriously”.

I am sure Her Majesty’s Government have their own reasons for this somewhat “now we’re here, now we’re not” approach, and I hope the Minister will be able to assure the House that the interests of the United Kingdom in this most important of European institutions, in which it plays so crucial a part, are indeed being fully addressed.

Immigration and Security

Viscount Bridgeman Excerpts

Thursday 4th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Bridgeman]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to my noble friend Lord Marlesford for initiating this debate.

It is worth reflecting on the reasons why the United Kingdom is such a sought after destination for immigrants. It is a commonly held view that this country has over the centuries benefited from its immigrants: the Huguenots, the Jews before and after the Second World War, and, more recently, thanks to the farsighted decision of the late Lord Carr of Hadley, the Asians from east Africa, to name only a few. It is fair to say that this country has been enriched by their contributions. However, these groups’ numbers pale into insignificance when compared with the huge numbers continuing to seek to settle in this country, mainly from the Indian subcontinent, particularly from Pakistan.

What draws such large numbers? It is, I suggest, in part the legacy of the empire, the shared English language, the basic familiarity with institutions which they will have known in their home countries, the attraction of the British way of life and the confidence that they can reasonably expect a fair deal from British justice, with a race relations regime that on the whole is a force for good. However, there are problems, as my noble friend pointed out. We do not have a national identity regime, the background of which he described very well. However, we must face the fact that because of its absence it is probably easier to “get lost” in the United Kingdom than in any other country in Europe. There is also the multiplier effect. The larger an originally immigrant community, the easier it is to hide oneself in it.

Many of the immigrants are economic migrants or “health tourists”, a subject very much in the news. However, as my noble friend pointed out, all too many arrive with more sinister intentions. My noble friend Lady Hamwee amplified that point. Many will have read with horror and disgust that several of the 7/7 bombers had been playing cricket the previous week. What better cover could they have had? To deal with this, we have a border control regime that in the recent past has proved not to be up to the job.

It is worth remembering that in the matter of border control, this country starts with several advantages not possessed by fellow members of the European Union. To start with, apart from Malta and Cyprus, the UK and Ireland are the only island members. We are not members of Schengen, which means that we are not, at least directly, affected by the porous links in the Schengen border chain, notably the Turkish-Greek land border, which causes so many problems to the already beleaguered Greeks, although I am encouraged by the steps which the EU has recently taken to improve the policing of that border.

Nevertheless, border control has quite plainly not been delivering. It was not effectively overseen by the previous Administration, who in 2008 formed the UK Border Agency, which held responsibility for all aspects of the immigration system, its overall policy, visa and migration applications, and the enforcement of border controls, including on crime. The agency was faced with a big backlog of asylum cases and its IT systems were often incompatible and relied on manual data entry instead of automated data collection.

The UKBA had been given agency status with the best of intentions to keep its work at arm’s length from Ministers. However, the effect was to create a close and defensive culture, which meant that many of the inefficiencies and problems associated with the UKBA remained hidden from the organisations that had the responsibility of scrutinising them. My noble friend has drawn attention to the shocking number of criminal convictions in the Home Office, particularly in the border agency, over the past five years. I very much welcome the appointment of Vice-Admiral Sir Charles Montgomery to be the commander of the border agency.

Noble Lords will recall that in March 2012 the functions of the UKBA were restructured, with immigration enforcement and visa applications being separated into two separate units within the Home Office and responsible to a Minister. This was to enable each body to create its own culture around its own priorities. The border force was created with the responsibility for entry controls and customs functions at UK borders.

I wish to take up a point made by my noble friend about e-passports. There are huge technological advances in this area, although in my limited recent experience I have yet to see my own e-passport beating the conventional queue at passport control. However, this is probably due to people ahead of me in the e-queue being as unfamiliar with the system as I am.

There are immense possibilities for intelligence-gathering with this new technology. My noble friend mentioned the inability of immigration authorities to compel applicants for passports to disclose other passports held by them. With the advent of the global society this is surely becoming increasingly anomalous, to say the least, facilitating as it surely does the activities of the international criminal. There must also be a read-across to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. I am not familiar with the background to the issue of dual or multiple passports by other jurisdictions, but I would welcome the Minister’s assurance that the Government are aware of this problem and to know whether they have any plans for addressing it.

Global Migration and Mobility (EUC Report)

Viscount Bridgeman Excerpts

Thursday 6th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Bridgeman]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for initiating this debate. It is a privilege to serve on his committee. I also pay tribute to Michael Torrance and Paul Dowling, who have given us magnificent support.

As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said at the beginning of his speech, migration will be always with us. Anyone who doubts this—they will not include any Member of your Lordships’ House taking part in this debate—should be familiar with a study by Felipe Gonzalez, a former Spanish Prime Minister, who forecast that by 2050 the European labour force would decline by 68 million and that this gap would need to be filled by the immigration of some 100 million people, including dependants. This statistic should be read alongside my noble friend Lord Hodgson’s comments about the impact of population growth in the United Kingdom.

Immigration into the EU is not out of control, as some commentators would have us believe. In 2008, for instance, legal migrants into the EU numbered 3.8 million. In the same period, those emigrating numbered 2.3 million. More tellingly, between 2006 and 2007, immigration decreased by 6% while emigration increased by 13%. It is another popular myth that illegal immigration forms a large part of total immigration into the EU—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and others. In fact, the largest proportion of illegal immigration is by individuals who outstay their visa entitlement. Nevertheless, irregular immigration cannot be ignored. Over the past few years, considerable progress has been made in tightening the EU’s borders. The so-called weak point has in recent years been the land border between Greece and Turkey. However, following intensive diplomatic contact with Turkey, this has been brought largely under control. However, I visited Greece recently and was made aware of considerable illegal landings along Greece’s long coastline. This problem is of course shared with Italy. In Greece, which has so many problems of its own, there are distressing scenes at Patras, where immigrants are violently and desperately seeking to get out of the country.

What, then, is the way forward? The report emphasises that the control of immigration from third countries should continue to be the responsibility of individual member states. However, as the report states that,

“a coordinated approach by the EU and its Member States to deal with the external dimension of migration is not only desirable but also imperative”,

and goes on to refer to the four pillars of the GAMM—legal migration, irregular migration, asylum and development. The report also highlights the need for the European Union to reach out to third countries to enable both sides to work towards a consensus on numbers and skills of immigrants from those countries.

The establishment of mobility partnerships—the agreement between the EU and individual third countries—is a constructive first step in that direction. We must, however, recognise that existing mobility partnerships are not at present with major third countries. These partnerships are an evolving process, and much valuable work can be done with looser, more informal forms of co-operation. These should be developed with important third countries, leading on to more formal agreements. My noble friend Lord Sharkey gave us an account of the evaluation process, and I hope that it is not too frivolous to say that the department might cut its teeth on the evaluation of the smaller countries before moving on to the more important ones, which I hope in the not too distant future will include Turkey. Indeed, the report makes important recommendations that Turkey and Pakistan, as major corridors for irregular migration into the EU, should be priorities for future mobility partnerships.

Perhaps I may just say a few words about readmission agreements. These are negotiated between the EU and third countries to facilitate the return to their country of origin persons who are illegal immigrants. The UK Government have not participated in all such agreements, and it is the recommendation of the committee, ably reinforced by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that the UK will opt in to as many of these as possible at a later stage. The opt-in with Turkey is particularly important, and it is seriously to be hoped that the current unrest in Turkey will not prejudice the effectiveness of the EU’s current relations with Turkey regarding migration.

The island geographies of the United Kingdom and Ireland put them apart from mainland Europe, and their absence from the Schengen agreement reflects this—a point made by my noble friend Lord Teverson. However, we must not lose sight of the important common practical benefits that we enjoy through membership of the EU, and here I particularly mention those relating to law and order. The European arrest warrant and Europol have produced results which I suggest to your Lordships are not fully appreciated in this country, particularly by those advocating unconditional withdrawal from the European Union.

Europol’s database is of huge benefit in fighting international crime, while under the European arrest warrant the speed with which international criminals can now be arrested and extradited is also of great benefit to this country. I shall give two examples. It took 10 years to extradite from the United Kingdom a man wanted by French police in connection with the Paris metro bombings, while in the past few weeks Andrew Moran, a notorious escapee from justice in the UK, was arrested in Spain, immediate extradition proceedings were instituted, and the extradition has been postponed only because Moran faces criminal charges in Spain. Therefore, these aspects of law and order are of huge value to the United Kingdom. I understand that both are subject to negotiation between the Commission and member states. Your Lordships may be aware that Sub-Committee F is currently engaged in examining the implications of the opt-out provisions available to the UK under the treaty of Lisbon. Therefore, and I would welcome the Minister’s assurance of the absolute need to keep the law and order provisions under the Lisbon treaty, in so far as they affect the United Kingdom, substantially in their present form.

Much has been said about student visas and I would just add a point about the competitiveness of higher education in the UK. It is faced by increasing competition not only from English-speaking third countries, such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States, but from other EU member states, where an increasing number of universities are offering courses in English at prices significantly undercutting their counterparts in the UK. I should not like to give the impression that on reading the excellent report from Universities UK one should go straight to the visuals, but there is a significant graph produced by ICEF in that document which shows that, in a survey by ICEF education agents rating countries as attractive, in 2008 the UK was top at 71%, followed by the United States at 68%. By 2012, only four years later, these percentages were 73% for the United States and 64% for the United Kingdom, with Canada, incidentally, showing the fastest growth, from 49% to a position exactly matching the UK’s of 64%.

The sharp fall in the satisfaction rating of the United Kingdom’s higher education bodies should be a cause of no little concern to the Government. I would welcome an assurance from the Minister that, whether or not students are included in the net migration figures, no bar will be placed on appropriately qualified students to study in the United Kingdom. My noble friend Lord MacGregor referred to no cap and this must mean actions, not words, and it must be clear. If this means an increasing commitment in time and effort by those universities in the UK that are defined as “highly trusted sponsors”, so be it. No effort must be spared to safeguard the outstanding reputation of the United Kingdom in higher education.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Viscount Bridgeman Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

I take the point. I conclude by saying that the Welsh Assembly’s Communities and Culture Committee reported on this Bill. Its headline recommendation was that the Welsh Government should have a dialogue with the UK Government to persuade them to defer the introduction of those aspects of the Bill that relate to the abolition of police authorities and the establishment of police commissioners and police and crime panels in Wales, at least until the effectiveness of their impact in England had been assessed.

Later, we shall come to amendments that relate specifically to Wales. They go further than I am asking the Government to do. I simply ask them to take account of the issues, and I urge them to give this proposal a test drive before imposing it on Wales and on the Welsh Assembly Government and the Assembly.

[Viscount Bridgeman]

My Lords, I shall be very brief. Perhaps I may respectfully say that the protocol has been given a very bad press by both the noble Lord, Lord Blair, who is not in his place at the moment, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester. I draw your Lordships’ attention to what I think is one nugget in the protocol. It says that the police and crime panel has:

“The power to ask HMIC for a professional view when the PCC intends to dismiss a Chief Constable”.

So far as I am aware, there has been little or no mention of the role of the HMIC in the relations between the commissioner and the chief constable, and I suggest that this is a very important link.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the Minister to her appointment. I welcome her because of her experience, her willingness to listen and the manner in which she has behaved since she came into this House. I, too, thought of something that I will, if she will forgive me, offer her as a word of advice. It came to mind when I was listening to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and particularly the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough. Sometimes this end of the telescope is slightly more difficult than the other end. On occasions, the difficulty is in convincing colleagues in the other place of the strength of feeling in your Lordships’ House. During the passing of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act, the then Secretary of State stood in the Corridor trying to negotiate through me, as the Whip, in order to get things through. Therefore, I welcome the noble Baroness’s experience and I am sure that she will adapt to this end of the Corridor.

I listened with interest to the noble Lord, Lord Dear. With respect, I think that he proved the point that I am about to make rather more than the one that he made. Had there been the direct election of an individual, I fear that at that time and in those circumstances the person to whom he referred, David Bookbinder, would have been elected because the political climate then was even less fettered. However, the most important point is that, as a result of some difficult experiences, modifications and improvements were made to the composition and role of police authorities, but they were incremental. One noble Lord after another has spoken about the need for incremental change in a service that we all hold dear.

My second point is equally important. The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, referred to our police service—to me, it is a service, not a force—roughing up the middle classes and failing to look to the interests of deprived communities. I am sorry: I live in the police authority area where I served as a member of the authority for 20 years and I do not recognise that description. What I do recognise, however, is that the middle classes are more vocal. They want a police officer in a car to appear at their door if they have a burglary and they also want police officers walking the streets, but I am afraid that, however populist the campaign, the concerns of that community will not be met by anyone. To my mind, my noble friend Lady Henig was, as leader of the County Councils Association, one of the best chairs of a police authority in the country. However, she could not provide what those vocal people wanted, because they wanted it and they wanted it now, and they were not prepared to talk through how much money it would cost.