Article 50

Debate between Baroness May of Maidenhead and Steve Baker

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. The point he made about the vote in Northern Ireland is one that I attempted to show earlier, which is that different parts of the United Kingdom voted in different ways: some voted to leave, some voted to remain. The overall result of the referendum of the United Kingdom was that we should leave the European Union, and that is what we will be doing. Obviously, we maintained contact with the Northern Ireland Executive up to the point at which they ceased to exist when the election was taking place. We have continued, however, to talk about the issue to political parties in Northern Ireland. The best result to ensure that the voice of the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland can be heard in these negotiations is for the parties to come together and for us to see that strong and devolved Government, who will provide us with that interlocutor.

[Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

Since the vote, the economic news has confounded expectations. Economists for Free Trade have told us how WTO rules with the right policies can cut consumer prices and raise GDP, and the Legatum Institute special trade commissioners have given us every reason to believe that we will not only secure the right trade deal for us, but liberate trade right around the world. Does the Prime Minister agree that the time for “Project Fear” is over?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right. Obviously, there were predictions about what would happen to the economy if the United Kingdom voted to leave. Those predictions have not proved to be correct and we see a strong economy. Of course, as we go forward we want to build on that. We want to ensure that we get those comprehensive trade agreements. I believe that a comprehensive free trade agreement with the European Union should be our aim. That is what we will be working for, but we will also be looking to promote trade around the rest of the world. As my hon. Friend has said, it is in the interests of everybody—not just the UK or the EU, but countries around the world—that we stand up for the benefits of free trade and promote free trade around the world.

European Council

Debate between Baroness May of Maidenhead and Steve Baker

Monday 24th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I could give the hon. Gentleman a very lengthy answer about that—[Interruption.] From a sedentary position, the shadow Foreign Secretary talks about “the substance”. The important point about the customs union is that the way in which you deal with the customs union is not a binary choice. There are different aspects to the customs union, which is precisely why it is important to look at the detail and get the answer right, not simply make statements.

[Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

As we proceed with new bilaterals, surely none of us wants to see first-class European goods and services becoming uncompetitive. I understood from my right hon. Friend’s answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) that there is no proposition to put tariffs between us and our European partners. Will she confirm that she is willing to offer them a free trade deal bilaterally?

[The Prime Minister]

At the risk of repeating yet again what I have said previously in this House, we want to get the right deal. I want to get the best possible deal with the maximum possible opportunities for British businesses to be able to trade with Europe: to operate within the single market and to trade with it in both goods and services. That is our clear aim—we want to be able to have that good trading relationship with the European Union—but there are other things that we will be doing at the same time, such as ensuring we can control the movement of people from the European Union into the UK.

Serious and Organised Crime: Prüm Convention

Debate between Baroness May of Maidenhead and Steve Baker

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I have to say that the blame for the carnage in France lies fairly and squarely with the terrorists who caused it. I believe it is absolutely right to listen to those with experience. I will come on to describe other examples of how the exchange of data is beneficial in a variety of circumstances. Before I do so, it might be helpful to the House if I set out how we have come to this point, exactly what the system is and what it is not.

As I have said, Prüm is primarily about the sharing of DNA profiles, fingerprints and vehicle registration data with other countries in order to prevent and investigate crime. It is worth noting at the outset that we already share such data with other countries via Interpol, so this debate is not about whether we should do so, but about how. This system automates the front end of an existing manual process to access that information. It will make information exchange subject to the touch of a button, rather than a lengthy manual process. That means that it will be quicker and easier for our police to check the national databases of other member states, hugely increasing the reach of UK law enforcement. It is important to remember that this is not a centralised EU database.

[Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend makes a very strong case for this technical function, but I am concerned that the threats we face extend far beyond Europe and the European Union. Will she say more about why it is so difficult to get Interpol and its member countries to adopt a similar system?

[Mrs May]

Because of the number of countries involved in Interpol and the amount of information that is available, there are very real difficulties and physical issues in getting all those countries to agree to such a system. In the European Union, countries have come together and decided that it would be beneficial to have such an automated process. So far, Interpol has retained the manual processes. Later, I will exemplify the difference in timing between the automated process of Prüm and the manual processes of Interpol.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs May]

There are separate arrangements of course. One reason we opted back into SIS II was to give our immigration officials the opportunity to deal with these issues as people crossed the border. As I said, it is possible to check the EU database for the fingerprints of asylum seekers and others detained crossing the EU’s borders illegally. I welcome my hon. Friend fully supporting our being able to take measures to tackle criminals and identify those who should be brought to justice, and I look forward to his joining me in the Lobby to support our entry into Prüm.

While it is incumbent on us to give the police the tools they need, it is also incumbent on us to balance that against any civil liberties worries that some may have. The Government have not made this decision without looking hard at how to protect British citizens. I was proud to be a member of the Government who abolished identity cards, stopped the indefinite retention of DNA profiles and fingerprints of those arrested and not convicted of offences and reformed stop and search. Where there have been genuine concerns, I have listened.

The first concern I have heard about this system is that innocent Britons could get caught up in overseas investigations. I believe this should be about catching criminals, so we will ensure that only the DNA profiles and fingerprints of those convicted of a crime can be searched against. We will write that into legislation. Innocent Britons will have nothing to fear. Secondly, I know there has been concern that some countries use lower scientific standards than the UK does when assessing DNA, as I mentioned earlier, and that this could lead to false positives in matches. That is why we will legislate to ensure that UK scientific standards apply before any personal data can be provided. As I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), this means there will be a less than one in a billion chance of the match not being a true one. We accept these standards domestically, and I will ensure that we apply them internationally. To suggest we go beyond that, however, would be to harm our ability to solve crimes.

[Mr Baker]

I wholeheartedly support the safeguards that my right hon. Friend has set out, but will she explain how she will be able to ensure they remain in place after she has brought the UK within the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union?

[Mrs May]

Yes. How we deal with the data on the databases held here is a national matter. The European Court of Justice does have some jurisdiction—my hon. Friend is right about that in respect of some matters—but its jurisdiction is over the “hit/no hit process” or mechanism. Beyond that, how we hold the material on the database is a matter for national decision.

[Mr Baker]

I understand that this will bring the whole of our arrangements under the charter of fundamental rights, so the manner in which we retain DNA will be subject to European standards rather than the standards set by this House.

[Mrs May]

No. I have to explain to my hon. Friend that we are able to determine the database, and that how we hold that database and the information that is held on it are matters for national decision. Articles 2(1) and (3) of the principal Prüm decision say that we need to inform the general secretariat about which profiles will be made available for searching under Prüm, while article 5 makes it clear that the follow-up process to a hit is subject to national law, not EU law.