Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Lord Skelmersdale
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendments 23 and 23F, because people who are far more expert in these areas have already forensically examined them. My noble friends Lord Touhig and Lord Wills, have already explained the reasoning behind them. They raise the important issue of how a broad public interest test would interact with the existing good faith test.
When Parliament passed the Public Interest Disclosure Act, it did not place a public interest test in the legislation, choosing instead to define the categories of wrongdoing under which disclosures in the public interest disclosure action fit. Good faith was seen as the appropriate safeguard.
If the public interest test is to be considered at all, it is crucial that it is considered in conjunction with the test of good faith. With the Government’s new test proposed in Clause 15, whistleblowers would need to show that they had reasonable belief that their disclosure was made in the public interest. Later there is the good faith test that their predominant motive for making a disclosure was in the public interest, creating, in effect, a double whammy of double public interest. Amendment 23F, proposed by my noble friend Lord Wills, would that good faith would become a consideration only at remedy stage. There is already a precedent for this, similar to the Polkey reductions used in allowing for unfair dismissal damages to be reduced where there has been contributory negligence.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Skelmersdale)
My Lords, I hate to interrupt the noble Lord, Lord Young, but there is a Division in the Chamber and therefore, unless he can draw his remarks to a very speedy conclusion, we will adjourn now for 10 minutes.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I can. As I was saying, I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Touhig and Lord Wills for tabling both the amendments, which provide the Committee with an opportunity to debate the proper application of the good faith test in the context of a new public interest test, which we are extremely concerned should not present a double barrier to workers who blow the whistle. We look forward to hearing from the Government on this and welcome the Minister’s assurances on further consultation.
Postal Services Bill
Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Lord Skelmersdale(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I readily understand why the noble Lord, Lord Laird, seeks to protect local post offices, not only in Northern Ireland but in the other far flung parts of the United Kingdom. The trouble is that, with this amendment, he has cast the agreement between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd in what I would call a leaden block. Not only is 15 years very long term but it means that, when Royal Mail is sold, there will be absolutely no opportunity within that 15 years to change the agreement, which might well be to the benefit of both sides. In the initial sale, the pre-nup agreement, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has just called it, will come as part of that particular package, but, as I have said, over a period of perhaps very few years, it may be to the mutual interest of both sides of the equation to come to renew the agreement. As far as I can see it, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Laird, prevents that happening.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
Amendment 24PA, standing in my name, would ensure the continuation of the current inter-business agreement between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd. The agreement should be in force before any disposal of an interest in a Royal Mail company and should include the definition of the relationship between that Royal Mail company and Post Office Ltd after the disposal.
Amendment 24P, in the name of the noble Lords, Lord Laird and Lord Rogan, seeks an inter-business agreement of 15 years’ duration, while that in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, seeks one of 10 years’ duration. We share the view that that would be a reasonable period, although Amendment 24PA makes the point at a different clause in the Bill. At this stage, I am sure that if Ministers could accept the principle then we could between us find the best place in the Bill to insert it.
The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, made a point about setting things in tablets of stone. I should have thought that there ought to be the capacity to review some of the detail of an inter-business agreement. The important thing is to establish it.
The Post Office is dependent on Royal Mail's business for a significant part of its survival strategy. More than one-third of its revenue, some £343 million, and one-third of sub-postmasters' pay, £240 million, is generated by selling Royal Mail products and services. If the two businesses are to be forced to separate, our concern is that a privatised Royal Mail might look elsewhere for a better bargain and for other retail outlets to sell its products. There is no guarantee it will use post offices to the same extent. The Bill does not safeguard the inter-business agreement through which Royal Mail guarantees use of the Post Office as its retail arm. When it comes to be renegotiated, a privatised Royal Mail could look to reduce costs by using other outlets such as supermarkets or high-street chains instead of post offices. To date, the Government have not agreed to undertake to extend the current, five-year IBA to 10 years.
Without an extended IBA, there is no guarantee that Royal Mail will continue to use the Post Office. In evidence to the Postal Services Bill Committee, the Minister, Ed Davey, stated:
“No previous Government have thought to put it on any different footing”.
But then no other Government have needed to intervene on the inter-business agreement because no other Government have separated the Post Office from Royal Mail. The Minister tried to reassure stakeholders by arguing that both Royal Mail and the Post Office want an extended inter-business agreement. He further said in evidence to the committee:
“I refer the Committee to what the chief executive of Royal Mail, Moya Greene, and Donald Brydon, the chairman, said. Moya Greene said it was unthinkable that there would not be a long-term relationship between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd. Donald Brydon said that he wanted to have the longest possible legally permissible agreement”.
The stated aims of the current management of Royal Mail, while welcome, are insufficient reassurance. The relationship between the two companies is one of imbalance. The Post Office cannot survive without Royal Mail, yet Royal Mail could succeed without the Post Office. Ed Davey went on to argue in his evidence to the committee:
“If you actually wrote that there should be a contract between two companies that are going to be separate companies into law, I think that it would be subject to serious legal challenge”. —[Official Report, Commons, Postal Services Bill Committee, 11/11/10; cols. 121-23.]
However, he has provided no evidence to support this position. Given the importance of retaining the relationship between the two businesses and the risk of leaving its maintenance to the discretion of Royal Mail, the Government should instead require a 10-year IBA as part of the Bill and ensure that this meets the requirements of EU competition law. To do so could only strengthen the position of the Post Office. As I understand it from a recent discussion with the Post Office, it is indeed seeking to establish a legally binding agreement with Royal Mail.
Consumer Focus has warned of the risk to the Post Office of the lack of a long-term IBA. It has argued that the number of post offices could fall by 37 per cent, from its current level of 11,900 to a minimum number consistent with the Government’s access criteria, 7,500. The National Federation of Sub-Postmasters believes that a minimum 10-year IBA is essential and that, in order to avoid further post office closures, the existing levels of Royal Mail work at post offices must be maintained, with a minimum 10-year IBA between the two companies.
Post offices—predominantly those in rural areas—are still struggling to survive; they are finding it hard. Only 4,000 of the UK’s 11,905 post offices are economically viable and, despite assurances from the Government, which we welcome, that there will be no further programme of post office closures, branches are still closing every week. More than 150 post offices have closed on a long-term temporary basis this year alone, with no absolute guarantee that they will reopen. So there is genuine concern here. The 900 post offices that are currently up for sale, an issued referred to George Thomson, the General-Secretary of the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters, is an unusually high number. Many sub-postmasters are retiring or leaving the business because of the low levels of revenue generated in sub-post offices and the Post Office is struggling to find alternative premises and service providers.
The post office network can ill afford to lose any more work. That is why it was unfortunate, to put it mildly—it is my attempt at irony—that the Post Office’s contract to award 400,000 green giros a week has recently been lost. This provided 400,000 transactions a week, a significant of level of footfall supporting the network and around £70 million in revenue over five years to Post Office Ltd. It strikes an unfortunate note given the recent statements by the Government that they are determined to ensure that post offices will be the front office for a number of government services. I would welcome the Minister’s comments on that decision.
As I have said, the Government have rejected a number of opportunities to make that commitment firm in this important legislation. They have declined to accept a statutory commitment, as exists in countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, to a figure of 11,500 offices; they have rejected embedding into the Bill the access criteria stating how close your nearest post office will be; and they have even rejected empowering Ofcom to adjust the statutory commitment over time. We do not doubt the Government’s good intentions but it will take more than that to require a privatised Royal Mail to use the post office network to the same extent as now.
European competition law is trailed as a possible obstacle to an inter-business agreement. The Minister for Postal Services told the Public Bill Committee in another place:
“I am unaware of any statutory precedent for requiring particular commercial terms between two independent businesses”.—[Official Report, Commons, Postal Services Bill Committee, 23/11/10; col. 360.]
However, there is no precedent for separating the Royal Mail from the post office network. The National Federation of Sub-Postmasters has said that there is nowhere in the world where this has happened. It is the role of new legislation to create precedents. It is because of the precedent of totally separating the Post Office from a privatised Royal Mail that we seek to underpin the relationship with the post office network.
We hope that the Government will reconsider this vital business agreement, which will ensure not only an enduring relationship but the future of the Post Office. I am conscious of the time and I shall cut short my contribution. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Postal Services Bill
Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Lord Skelmersdale
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, Amendment 24B would strengthen reporting requirements on the Post Office to reflect also on the use of the network by the universal service provider and how this may have changed in the preceding year. Once again, Clause 11 requires the Post Office to send a report to the Secretary of State each year about its network of post offices. As I have previously said, the network must give details of the number and location of post offices in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. It must also give details of the postal services, the services provided under arrangements with a government department and other services provided by the Post Office. It must further give details of the accessibility.
I will not repeat what I said on the previous amendment, but the reporting arrangements in Clause 11 are important and wide ranging. However, they can be helpfully strengthened by Amendment 24B to reflect the challenges that the Post Office will face following separation from Royal Mail. It is vital that due consideration is given as to how the universal service provider—currently Royal Mail but following the successful passage of this Bill potentially one or more alternative postal operators—will use the post office network when it ceases to be part of an integrated company.
Many stakeholders have grave concerns regarding the risk to the post office network from the proposals in the Bill to separate Post Office Ltd from Royal Mail. The Post Office is dependent on Royal Mail business for its survival. One-third of its revenue and one-third of sub-postmasters’ pay is generated from selling Royal Mail products and services. If the two businesses are forced to separate, a privatised Royal Mail will be, or could be, likely to look elsewhere for retail outlets to sell its products. There is no guarantee it will use post offices to the same extent.
The Bill does not safeguard the inter-business agreement through which Royal Mail guarantees use of the Post Office as its retail arm. When it comes to be renegotiated a privatised Royal Mail will look to reduce costs, possibly by using other outlets such as supermarkets or high street chains instead of post offices. The Government will not undertake to extend the current five-year IBA to 10 years. It is on those grounds that we believe that Clause 11 needs strengthening as per the amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Skelmersdale
I am rather surprised that the noble Lord did not seek to group this amendment with the amendments that have just been discussed because, to a great extent, he is covering the same point, although I noticed that he brought the inter-business agreement into his comments towards the end. On that basis, I rather hope that the Minister will to a great extent repeat the answer that she gave to the last group of amendments and in particular her reference to Clause 11(4), which gives the Secretary of State the power to ask the reporters preparing the Post Office report to produce information on any subject relating to the post office network that he believes is necessary at a particular time. This is likely to vary from year to year. I therefore do not think that it is particularly suitable to put this in primary legislation.
Baroness Wilcox
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, for moving the amendment and my noble friend for pointing out that it is very similar to the amendments that I spoke to just now. I will see if I can again convince the noble Lord that my response will be a good answer for him to take away and think about.
As we have discussed, the annual report is an important means of achieving transparency around the Post Office network. It is, of course, also right that an annual report on the Post Office network should give details of the postal services that the Post Office provides. That is why we have included this requirement specifically in Clause 11(2)(b). This section requires the annual report to contain details of,
“the postal services … that are provided at … post offices”.
We would expect this to include any postal services that the Post Office provides on behalf of the universal service provider. The income that the Post Office receives from mail and the services that it provides for Royal Mail are, of course, vital and sub-postmasters highly value the footfall generated by mails customers. Indeed, Royal Mail and the Post Office are natural partners and we envisage their relationship continuing for years to come. There is an overwhelming commercial imperative for the two businesses to work together. Indeed, the chief executive of Royal Mail, Moya Greene, commented on the strength of the network and said that it would be “unthinkable” that there would not always be a strong relationship between Royal Mail and the Post Office.
However, we know that the projected decline in letter volumes means that postal services will not be a growth area for the Post Office, despite potential opportunities in parcels. That is why the Post Office is developing new revenue streams, as detailed in our policy statement. We should all be clear that the majority of the Post Office’s income already comes from other sources, in particular financial services, government services and telephony.
The latest Postcomm report on the network of post offices in the UK contains a breakdown of the percentage of Post Office Ltd’s revenue derived from mails, including postal services, as well as financial services, government services and telephony. This information is shown on an annual basis from 2003-04, which allows you to see the change not only since the preceding year but over several years. This information, currently included in the Postcomm report, is exactly the type of information that we would wish to be included when the responsibility for the report transfers to a Post Office company. However, I understand that the continuing relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail is an important issue for noble Lords and, as such, I would be happy to take this suggestion away to consider. For the time being, therefore, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, there was no intention on our part to have these amendments dealt with separately. We did not have a request to group them, but I must admit that although they cover different areas, they are associated with one another. I shall keep this contribution brief.
Amendment 24E aims to strengthen reporting requirements for the Post Office to ensure that the level of access to post offices and post office services for both small and medium-sized businesses is monitored. Given the importance of that relationship, which has been recognised by all sides of the Committee, we are focusing on this particular aspect. The amendment seeks to strengthen Clause 11 by recognising that medium-sized businesses as well as small ones are highly dependent on post office services and therefore should be included. Small and medium-sized enterprises account for 99 per cent of all businesses in the UK. They provide 59.8 per cent of private sector employment and 49 per cent of private sector turnover. SMEs are indeed the backbone of the UK economy, and hence it is our view that this amendment would make an important contribution towards strengthening Clause 11. I await with interest the Minister’s response. I beg to move.
Lord Skelmersdale
The noble Lord is of course absolutely right. As the director of an SME myself, I sympathise exactly with the words he has just enunciated. It therefore occurs to me to ask my noble friend why Clause 11(3)(c) only refers to small businesses. It seems illogical.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I suspect that the noble Lord is right. I shall need to check it, but I tend to agree with him at the moment. However, I do not want to delay the Committee.
Postal Services Bill
Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Lord Skelmersdale(13 years, 9 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Skelmersdale)
You are speaking to it.