Citizens Advice Bureaux

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Lord Newton of Braintree

Thursday 8th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Boateng for securing this debate at a very appropriate time given all the other relevant legislation that is going through the House. He gave us a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis of the impact of the Government’s proposals and rightly suggested that they ought to think again.

Given the unanimous view of noble Lords on this issue, I was tempted to make the shortest contribution ever and say, “Ditto”. However, I thought that that might be misunderstood and that I should provide an analysis as I am speaking on behalf of the Opposition Front Bench.

The noble Lord, Lord Newton, reminded us that the CABs existed before the term “big society” had been invented and that if they did not exist, they would have had to be invented. I have only one slight caveat as regards his contribution when he said that the impact of any reduction in this service would be felt by the relatively poor and vulnerable. However, I think we should delete “relatively” as I think that such a measure will have an impact on the poor and vulnerable, and on people with disabilities even more so.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

That is being semantic, if I may say so.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

It is. I spoke in that way to create a certain effect—nothing more than that. I do not need to quote the Cambridge CAB briefing because the noble Lord has already done that. There is another quote that I shall come to later.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, rightly reminded us of people’s ability to make use of the law as regards social justice. He is absolutely right. Sixty-four per cent of CAB staff are volunteers and the key issue expressed by nearly every speaker, and by the CAB itself, is the real concern about the impact if the funding for training is not around. Some of the bureaux are saying that there is already an impact and that they are losing staff and volunteers. That precious reservoir of experience built up over the years is a loss that will be hard to replace.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle gave a graphic description of the impact on rural areas. That is an issue to which we do not pay enough attention. He was also right to draw to our attention the fact that while many people are quite comfortable with making a query by using a PC and the internet, or even perhaps a smart phone, they do not suit everyone—certainly not the most vulnerable. We cannot take for granted access to those forms of communication.

My noble friend Lord Bach rightly, as did a number of noble Lords, talked about the Ministry of Justice proposals, as a result of which some CABs, given the loss of funding, may even close. He pointed out that they were trusted and respected, and he also raised the issue of access to justice and the startling cut from £28 million to £5 million. The message we want to convey to the Minister is that these are false savings. That is the unfortunate thing about this matter. Another statistic is that some 65,000 cases taken up by CABs were funded by legal aid. There is likely to be a 75 per cent cut in the number of those cases.

The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said that he was starting to feel sorry for the Minister. I reflected on that and thought: we are coming up to Christmas, and even Scrooge managed to see the light and repent. I do not address that to the Minister in particular, but the ghost of Christmas to come might be haunting her, or at least the Government collectively. There is still time. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, rightly reminded us of the impact of the Welfare Reform Bill.

I return to the statements made by the chief executive of Citizens Advice, Gillian Guy. She said:

“Everyone who supports Citizens Advice—and we are pleased this includes David Cameron—should be deeply concerned by the news”,

of a 7 per cent drop in the total number of people that CABs were able to help. She continued:

“It’s now clear that cuts are beginning to disrupt our front line services across the country, just as people struggle to cope with the impact of job losses, reductions in public services and a massive jump in the cost of living. We want to be there for all who need us, but when bureaux have their funding slashed, there’s simply no alternative to cutting back the help we offer”.

Ms Guy warned that there will be much worse to come if planned changes to legal aid go ahead and funding for face-to-face specialist debt advice ends. She added:

“Our clients tell us that CAB advice is a lifeline when they face debt, benefits housing and employment worries. Unless sustainable funding is put in place for the future”—

I stress “sustainable”; there has been some additional funding, but it is temporary—

“more and more people will have nowhere to turn”.

She again stresses:

“Every £1 of legal aid spent on housing, debt, employment and benefits advice can save up to £8.80 in costs to the taxpayer further down the line, by nipping problems in the bud before they escalate out of control”.

She adds:

“When bureaux are forced to reduce services, they also lose highly skilled, dedicated volunteers or staff—a tragic waste and a false economy when you take into account the resources invested in creating a highly trained volunteer workforce able to provide a professional service to the public”.

She cites a couple of examples. The noble Lord, Lord Newton, has already mentioned the Cambridge CAB. Mansfield CAB, along with other bureaux in Nottinghamshire, has had a 60 per cent cut in funding from Nottinghamshire county council, rising to 74 per cent in 2012-13, leading to difficult decisions about how to make those savings with the least impact on the service to clients. The bureau estimates that at least 2,000 fewer local people will be able to get the in-depth advice they need as a result of the cuts to its funding. It has also had to make redundant the post-holder whose function was—this is a cruel irony—to recruit, train and support volunteers, meaning that it is currently having to turn away people who want to train as volunteer advisers. That seems not only a terrible false economy but something that flies in the face of reason and the big society concept.

I am conscious of the time. I trust that the Minister will respond to the cogent and vital points that have been made, and I look forward to her reply.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Lord Newton of Braintree

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I have sympathy with the amendment; I think that it is a probing amendment. I certainly welcome the framework document, because I think that it is an attempt to explain what is going on, even if it does not deal with every detail.

The Government state in that document that the challenge in creating a single competition authority will be to help create a framework which is genuinely greater than the sum of its parts—for example, by streamlining procedures and processes to the benefit of those who use or are affected by them. There is doubt about whether that can be achieved. My noble friend Lord Dubs was right when he said that both authorities when they were initiated were the subject of large debate and primary legislation. Is this the right way to deal with them in future? That is a major decision.

I certainly concur with some of the concerns expressed by my noble friend Lady Hayter. Indeed, I was going to ask about the consumer functions that are being transferred. The Government state that the focus is to create a single strong point of information on education and advocacy and that citizens advice services will also take on responsibility for the Consumer Direct helpline. Strong concern has been expressed in the Chamber about the idea that Consumer Focus will be merged with the citizens advice bureaux—mainly because there have been examples around the country of local authorities cutting those services. There is genuine concern about that aspect of the Office of Fair Trading’s activities being transferred to the citizens advice bureaux.

The document also mentions consumer credit functions being subject to a separate consultation as part of the HMT proposals for a new consumer protection and markets authority and that any subsequent transfer will be dealt with primarily through separate financial services legislation. It also talks about the possibility of the consumer functions being transferred in advance of the wider merger proposal. That only stresses our anxiety about whether there will be the ability at local authority level to deal with those aspects of consumer protection.

Those are our concerns about the proposals. I hope that the Minister will tackle the questions raised in his response.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, before my noble friend replies with his characteristic clarity, perhaps I may be a seeker after truth. There has been reference to consultation. I am now left totally confused. I read the briefing note that I took off the e-mail only yesterday in respect of today's proceedings, which contains the following line:

“The Government will consult on its detailed proposals in the new year”.

I am aware of the elasticity of seasons in respect of Her Majesty's Government, whoever forms it, but this seems to be getting ridiculous. Are we consulting or are we waiting?