Intelligence: Russia

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 31st January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. I am not party to some of the discussions going on in the FCDO and elsewhere, but he highlights the point that we have a major problem with regard to the influence here.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, the reason why Putin and his ilk do not worry too much about economic sanctions is that much of their wealth is laundered over here. The Minister referred to the unexplained wealth orders legislation. Can she explain why there have been few, if any, successful prosecutions?

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Lords Hansard - part one & Report stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I waited because I wanted to hear which amendments our Front-Bench speakers were supporting. I made my views clear in our previous debate on this issue. I was a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Gypsies, Travellers and Roma and I no longer am, because in my view the behaviour of some Travellers—I stress “some Travellers”—was not being publicly condemned. I used the phrase “the 2R formula”: I will absolutely continue to defend the rights of Travellers, but along with those rights, in our society, there also comes the responsibility to behave in a reasonable way.

I congratulate my noble friend Lady Whitaker on her amendment, because at least there is an acknowledgement in it that there are problems with behaviour, and we should recognise that. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for his contribution about adopting a proportionate response to this. This is not about dehumanising Gypsies, Roma and Travellers; it is not about taking us back to Auschwitz, and I say that as a non-practising Jew, so I hope my contribution will be taken in this light. There are, unfortunately, real examples of some Travellers behaving in ways that are totally unacceptable. Some, unfortunately, have been associated with modern slavery. These are cases that have been proven. Others seem to think that it is perfectly reasonable to go around collecting building waste, or other waste, and saying it will be disposed of properly when it will not—it will be dumped. We had this on our own village green.

When somebody says that people are opposed to Travellers, they mean that they are opposed to the unreasonable behaviour of some Travellers. That is what causes a lot of it. Of course there are examples of people who are prejudiced, but we should not generalise on this issue. I have some sympathy for my noble friend Lady Whitaker’s amendment and that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, who has genuinely tried to find a way forward on this.

I thank the Minister; we had a useful meeting, and I suggested to her that one thing that could be done is to set up local liaison committees—they may exist already—which would involve representatives of Travellers, residents and local authorities. I have not tried to define specifically what they would be but there certainly needs to be more contact and communication between the groups. It would be useful if the Minister could give some examples of what she considers best practice around the country; I believe some examples have been usefully quoted.

A minority of Travellers behave in ways that are unacceptable to communities. If that behaviour could be stopped or condemned, I think there would be a totally different attitude within communities. It is about proportion, about getting the balance right. Have the Government got it absolutely right? I am not sure—I am waiting to hear the Minister’s response—but polarising the debate in this House as some have done by saying that it is all based on people’s innate prejudice and discrimination against Travellers does not help.

There is a genuine problem, and it may be that the Government’s solution is not absolutely right. I was interested in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick; I might have known that he would put his legal finger on it when he asked whether, if someone was behaving reasonably and gave an excuse that there was no other stopping place, that would be considered a reasonable response in the circumstances.

I look forward to the Minister’s reply. I hope my noble friends will recognise that although I have not entered this debate with the most popular view, I have tried to show that I do not discriminate against Gypsies, Roma and Travellers—far from it. I continue to want to support their rights, but on the basis that they recognise that they too have responsibilities.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in what has been quite a wide-ranging debate on Part 4 of the Bill. Part 4 delivers on a clear manifesto commitment to tackle the harms caused by unauthorised encampments. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for his comments, and agree that equating the measures in this Bill with the atrocities committed in Nazi Germany is, quite frankly, disgraceful. I will not take an intervention until I have finished my point. Any noble Lord who thinks that I would stand at this Dispatch Box and promote anything that had even a sniff of that is quite wrong. I give way to the noble Lord.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, but I think I made it clear in my contribution that I do not believe the Government’s proposals are right or necessary. Do not find a difference with me on those grounds, because it is not what I am suggesting.

If we really want to find a solution to these problems—I think one of the right reverend Prelates made a point about discrimination in education—lots of schools take real pride and make an effort in accommodating Gypsy, Roma and Traveller children. They are the examples of best practice which the Government should encourage. It is not true to say that all Gypsy, Roma and Travellers are illiterate and innumerate—far from it. In fact, one person I met who impressed me was a young woman from a Traveller family who had taken herself through university and become a teacher and an absolute credit to her community. We should beware of sweeping generalisations. They do not help us in these circumstances.

I am aware of the lateness of the hour, but I wanted to make this contribution. I like to think that my activities in support of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller group will not cause me to be labelled as unfairly prejudiced or discriminatory. Ever since I was capable of doing it, I have fought all my life against any form of discrimination, whether it is anti-Semitism, racism or discrimination against Gypsy, Roma and Traveller groups.

My plea to the Minister when she gets to her feet is to take into account the fact that there are some genuine concerns from a number of us about the nature of the government proposals and whether they will help the situation and are necessary—or whether the existing laws are such. I also do not believe that the nature of the amendments, if I take that of my noble friend Lord Rosser as an example, is a solution to the problem. That is why I suggest that, before we reach Report, the Minister convene a meeting, which might enable us to find a bit more common ground than appears to exist in the Chamber at the moment.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate on Clauses 62 and 64. I am grateful to have had discussions with the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, and am happy to have further discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, before Report.

These clauses deliver on a clear manifesto commitment to tackle unauthorised encampments. It is worth quoting directly from the Conservative manifesto, as the commitment was in explicit terms. The manifesto said:

“We will give the police new powers to arrest and seize the property and vehicles of trespassers who set up unauthorised encampments, in order to protect our communities. We will make intentional trespass a criminal offence”.


The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and others have challenged me to say, if I was not talking just about the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community, who I was talking about. It is anyone who sets up camp on unauthorised land and causes significant damage, disruption or distress. My noble and learned friend Lord Garnier gave us an example, and he was not even sure who the individuals were. When I go on holiday to Cornwall, I see examples of unauthorised encampments, and I do not know who the individuals are. It is a wider problem than just Gypsy, Roma and Travelling communities.

We have brought forward the measures in Part 4 because we understand the challenges many locations across the country face when individuals cause significant damage, disruption or distress to communities, businesses, and landowners. The financial cost of cleaning up sites and repairing damage can also be significant. It is not a sound assumption to say that landowners will have sufficient resources to be able to clean up after some of the damage that is caused to their land. The measures are a proportionate means of protecting the rights of communities. While we must ensure fair and equal treatment for Travellers, and recognise that the majority are law-abiding, as the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, said, we are equally clear that we will not tolerate law-breaking and we are determined to ensure that the police have the powers they need to support and serve their communities. That is why we are introducing this new criminal offence as a proportionate means of protecting the rights of communities.

It is very important to recognise that the threshold for the new offence is high. The act of taking a vehicle on to someone else’s land without their permission is not in and of itself criminalised by this clause, nor is an “unauthorised encampment” in itself an offence. There are several conditions to the offence, all of which must be satisfied for someone to be found guilty of the offence. Most importantly, the offence requires conduct or residence that causes, or is likely to cause, significant damage, disruption or distress. I would hope that no one in your Lordships’ House would condone such conduct.

I move now to the amendments. The three government amendments in this group, Amendments 134, 146 and 148, are simply clarificatory in nature so I do not propose to say more on them at this stage.

Amendment 133 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, would have the effect that no criminal offence is committed unless the police make the request to the trespasser to leave. This would remove the ability of a landowner to trigger the offence by requesting that trespassers leave their land, and would slow the enforcement process down, while using more police resource.

As I have said, the new offence targets only those who cause significant damage, disruption or distress and who do not leave when asked to do so. It is right that on those occasions where significant harms have taken place, enforcement action should be taken to protect citizens and businesses. This amendment would remove the ability for police to act more quickly where they need to in response to unauthorised encampments causing significant harm, disruption or distress.

Noble Lords have raised concerns that this means that those on unauthorised encampments could be criminalised simply because the landowner does not want them there or because they hold prejudiced views towards people. This is simply not the case. The police will need to continue to collect evidence to form reasonable grounds for suspecting that the offence has been committed, and the offence will apply only where specific conditions have been met. In addition, we expect that the police will continue to have regard to their duties under the Human Rights Act 1998 and to their duty to safeguard the vulnerable before and when taking enforcement decisions.

A few noble Lords referred to the word “significant”, specifically the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. It is widely used in legislation, and examples are set out in the draft statutory guidance. This type of qualifying term is used for other offences without government guidance; for example, the Public Order Act 1986 refers to

“serious disruption to the life of the community”,

and Section 14A of that Act, on prohibiting trespassing assemblies, refers to “significant damage”.

On the Human Rights Act, the Government believe that the measures are compliant with the ECHR and the Equality Act 2010. We respect the rights of the Traveller community to follow a nomadic way of life, in line with their cultural heritage. Enforcement action will not be based on race or ethnicity. Anyone who causes significant harm, disruption or distress and does not leave when asked to do so will commit the offence.

Amendment 135 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, seeks to provide that the offence is committed only when a suitable site has been offered. There is no justification for causing significant harm, disruption or distress—the lack of availability of a pitch on an authorised site cannot be an excuse for such conduct. As I have said, the fact of the unauthorised encampment is not in itself an offence. If significant harms are being caused, it is only right that the police have powers to tackle those harms, and that those harms should incur enforcement action in the way that any other criminal behaviour would.

Amendment 136 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville—I know she has had to leave, or else she will not get her last train home—would require a senior police officer to conduct a welfare assessment before considering if enforcement action is proportionate. I can assure the Committee that, in making decisions around the seizure of property, the police will need to take into account welfare considerations and vulnerabilities, and, where possible, should liaise with local authorities regarding suitable accommodation, just as they currently do.

Therefore, we do not think that this amendment is necessary. The police already give full consideration to their responsibilities under their public sector equality duty, and to the potential impact that issuing a direction to leave, or utilising powers of arrest and seizure, may have on the families involved, before they reach a decision on taking enforcement action. Each case will be dealt with on its own merit and according to the evidence.

Domestic Abuse: Protection of Victims

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 27th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The idea is that they will be able to access the support—it would be a terrible thing if, say, the mother of the child was getting the support and the children simply were not. Part and parcel of the support that people will receive includes of course the children of people who are being abused.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, how will the Government ensure that Refuge and other providers which choose to prioritise the well-being of women by applying single-sex exemptions are not penalised through contracts awarded by local authorities, CCGs and PCNs, many of which have misinterpreted the Equality Act by making gender-neutral or trans-inclusive provision for members of the opposite sex a condition of contracts? Will the Minister agree to a meeting with me and others to discuss the current guidance on this issue?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

What is important is that local providers of accommodation-based services are the people who are best placed to do the risk assessment when people are going into their accommodation. It has become a very volatile conversation and I would be very pleased, at a slow time, to have a conversation with the noble Lord on this issue.

Gangmasters (Licensing Authority) Regulations 2014

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

There were two figures that the Minister quoted that I thought were interesting. I missed exactly whether the £1.2 million was the licence fee—I might have got that wrong but she can correct me if so. As interesting was the £4 million compensation that was obtained. I presume that was in circumstances where, for one reason or another, employment rights had been transgressed, whether it was minimum wage or whatever the circumstances were. It would be interesting to have some detail about what that compensation involved.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who took part in the debate. First, I will discuss the future direction of the GLA now that it has become a Home Office body, which has been touched upon in various speeches.

The Government are determined that criminals who engage in forced labour, trafficking and other abuses, and unscrupulous employers who exploit vulnerable workers should face tougher enforcement action and stronger penalties. That is why the GLA became a Home Office body in April, to enable it to strengthen its enforcement and intelligence-gathering capabilities. In the Home Office, the GLA can benefit from closer co-operational links to the wider law enforcement family and it will work in partnership with the National Crime Agency, regional crime hubs, local police forces and immigration enforcement teams. The GLA will be able to secure expert support from the National Crime Agency intelligence hub and immigration enforcement intelligence. The GLA will also have access to College of Policing-accredited training developed for immigration enforcement investigators.

The GLA is at the forefront of the fight against worker exploitation, forced labour and slavery. Some noble Lords touched upon modern slavery. A reformed board able to steer the organisation through change and provide leadership is essential. This reform is even more important now that the GLA sits alongside enforcement bodies in the Home Office, sharing intelligence and reducing crime.

The first point made by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose was about value for money. The reform is not primarily about saving money but about increasing effectiveness. The cost of licences is a slightly separate issue, but there is no current plan to change the licensing fee structure. The fees are currently banded according to the turnover of businesses, which I think one noble Lord touched upon, and the lowest fee is £400.

My noble friend also touched on forestry businesses. Forestry businesses were excluded from the need for licensing under an order in October 2013. As in the example given by my noble friend, forestry is therefore not an issue in this case.

Going back to the move to the Home Office, it is not about narrowing the focus of the GLA to prosecutions only. The move will only enhance partnership working, in our view.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, talked about getting the right skills for the board. We are aiming for a board that has the best skills and expertise, which includes the expertise of the sectors being regulated but also those with other relevant experience; for example, commercial, financial and legal expertise, and expertise in the regulation of comparable sectors. Each individual applies through open competition and will go through a recruitment process. We want the right make-up for the board so that it can take forward the reforms that are needed to ensure that the GLA can continue to fight for workers and ensure that they are not exploited.

Noble Lords also touched upon the advisory committees that will sit alongside the main board. It is a matter for the board how it establishes and works with advisory committees. The Government’s transparency agenda would expect the board to publish relevant papers as appropriate.

There has been quite a lot of discussion this afternoon about why the Government want to reduce the current number of board members. I do not know whether noble Lords have sat on boards; I certainly have, and a board of 29 does not make decisions in a very efficient manner. Just from personal experience, I would rather sit on a board of nine than 28 or 29. The current make-up of the GLA board was designed 10 years ago to encourage all stakeholder groups affected by the licensing scheme to take part in establishing the authority. Now that licensing is established in the regulated sectors, the GLA needs a more streamlined board with a clear remit to provide strategic oversight. Having a board appointed on merit through open competition will bring the GLA in line with similar public bodies and widen the pool from which candidates can be drawn.

One noble Lord—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Young—talked about the wide variety of stakeholders to be heard and asked how the board would do that. The advisory committees will help in that endeavour, and the existing stakeholder liaison groups, which cover the labour providers, labour users, workers and businesses concerned, will also continue.

Noble Lords asked why nine is the magic number. We believe that the right skill set can be gained through a board of nine members, while also ensuring that it is able to take swift and clear decisions. Nine is not inconsistent with comparable boards of other arm’s-length bodies.

If I could just touch on the point that the noble Lord, Lord Young, made about the £1.2 million, that is how much the GLA has identified in proceeds of crime and in protecting more than 5,000 workers and recovering some £4 million for victims. That is where the £1.2 million has come from.

I do not know whether I have satisfied the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, but I am sure that he is about to stand up and tell me if I have not.

[Lord Grantchester]

I start by saying that I omitted to mention my farming interests in a dairy farm. I apologise to the Committee for that omission. However, in my experience in the farming sector I have never heard of a lack of back-up for any of the enforcement authorities that cover the many regulations that the general practice of agriculture has to abide by.

I listened very carefully to the Minister but I do not think I picked up how it was explained that the Home Office would ensure that best practice guidance and prevention would be maintained, even though there would be a greater emphasis on enforcement. Perhaps I could gently ask for that assurance to be given.

Similarly, I recognise that 29 is a very unwieldy number and that it could be reduced now the GLA is established. If the Minister could say a little more to reassure me on several of the further questions I posed about the GLA’s continuation of its functions, so that the Home Office could reassure stakeholders and the TUC, as the representative of workers, that possession of the proper skill set will be part of the background assessments in making an appointment, that would be most helpful.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I asked whether the Minister would consider the review timetable. I do not know whether the existing triennial review is all that is proposed but, given the changes that are taking place, a shorter period would seem to be appropriate. If the Minister could respond to that, I would be grateful.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I understand it, the GLA’s current role and practice will continue. I will write to noble Lords and correct this if I am wrong, but I understand that there will also be a slight budget increase for next year. We are not taking anything away in the move to the Home Office. As to whether the GLA will focus only on enforcement, it will continue as a regulator in the sectors that it covers. It regularly issues briefing notes to the sector on licensing employment and the awareness of exploitation, and I understand that that will continue.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

The review period?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I understand it, there is currently a triennial review, but I will clarify that in a note to the noble Lord.