Enterprise Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Sharp of Guildford
Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD)
We on these Benches have considerable sympathy with this amendment. In Committee, we had a lot of discussion on quality and the number of apprentices who have completed only level 2 apprenticeships, which many people regard as being not really full apprenticeships. Indeed, the Government have a notion in a later part of the Bill of creating a statutory apprenticeship—the level 3 apprenticeship, which is normally a two-year or even a three-year apprenticeship.
Yesterday I had the benefit of visiting Rolls-Royce’s Apprenticeship Academy and saw precisely what a high-quality apprenticeship is really about. It is important to recognise that there are different levels of apprenticeship. The noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, talked about the need for us to aim at higher-level apprenticeships—levels 4 and 5—but it is important to recognise that there is a progression in apprenticeships from level 2, which is almost an entry-level apprenticeship, through to level 3, which is the standard apprenticeship, and on to levels 4 and 5, which are the more detailed apprenticeships for technicians. As the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, mentioned, we as a country are extremely short of those who have completed apprenticeships at level 4 or 5, the technician level, and we need to put in considerable effort to increase the numbers. Equally, for some young people, a level 2 or level 3 apprenticeship is more appropriate than trying to push them into the very much higher-level apprenticeships.
I endorse the move by the Government to try to increase the quality of apprenticeships as well as the number of apprenticeships. There is some danger that in trying to reach the 3 million target, this may get pushed to one side again. For that reason, we on these Benches endorse the amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 56, which is in my name. I endorse what my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn said about ensuring that we get high-quality as well as high-level skill. We are about to enter quite a complicated area in relation to apprenticeships. In the Autumn Statement today, the Chancellor talked about the apprenticeship levy. How it operates in relation not just to large companies but to SMEs will be vital. The Government have a doubled-edged, or perhaps even a triple-edged, challenge: increasing the number of apprenticeships to a large degree; ensuring that we sustain quality, which has already been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn and the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp; increasing the number of SMEs that employ apprentices; and attracting young people into apprenticeships with the guarantee that they will participate in a high-quality scheme.
Enterprise Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Sharp of Guildford
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
My Lords, in moving Amendment 49E I will speak also to Amendment 50A, which is purely consequential. The purpose of the amendment is explicitly to try to pull in the clout of public purchasing to encourage companies that are contracted to public sector organisations to take on apprenticeships, and to encourage private sector organisations to pick up the baton.
I have two very good examples of where this has been done pretty systematically. One is the Olympic Park in 2012. The noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, knows this example quite well. It is quite an inspiring example. The original target for apprenticeships in the park was 350, but it ended up with well over 450; 12% of them were black, Asian or ethnic minority, compared to 5% generally within the country; 64% came from London and 30% from the boroughs involved with the Olympics, the eastern London boroughs, so apprenticeships were being provided for local people. In addition, 6% were women, whereas in the construction industry only 3% of apprentices are generally women, so they managed to double that even though 6% is pretty abysmally low. They had only a 6% dropout rate from the apprenticeships, whereas nationally the dropout rate at that time was about 25%.
An evaluation was done and it is interesting to look at the success factors. The report says:
“Many activities were undertaken to deliver the Apprenticeship Programme”,
including:
“The tangible ownership and driving influence of senior project leads”.
That is very important. Senior management was involved and absolutely behind it. The report also says:
“Robust and effective working relationships were fostered with a number of colleges and training providers”.
This is what we are all saying these days: partnership between industry and the training providers—colleges, independent training providers and, for that matter, schools—is vital. The report also points to:
“Full stakeholder engagement that included relevant industry bodies”—
it was not just the firms themselves but the sector skills agencies, the funding agencies, national and local government, and the trade unions were all involved in helping to design the programme and get it moving. There was also:
“The implementation of a contractual requirement that three per cent of a new contractor’s workforce be apprentices”—
picking up the 3% that the Minister was talking about and deliberately putting a target on the subcontractors. The report also points to:
“Implementing a follow-up monitoring process, in partnership with the National Apprentice Service”.
It was followed up, it was well monitored and the figures are there. Finally, the report points to:
“The active promotion of construction as a positive career choice”.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, was quoting figures earlier. As he was saying, sadly we have not seen a very considerable increase in the number of apprenticeships in traditional areas such as construction and mechanical engineering. The big growth has been very much in the service sectors, particularly care, retail and hotel and catering.
I also quote this from the evaluation, because it makes an important point:
“Something very positive and supportive was in place in the environment that the ODA”—
the Olympic Delivery Authority—
“created on the build programme and the markedly low drop-out helped to promote apprenticeships among those employers who were reluctant to take on young people, some of whom feared a high turnover and a wasted investment”.
That was a very positive experience.
I also quote another example, which the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, who is sat behind me, will know. Last week we had in evidence to the Select Committee on social mobility and skills a presentation from Crossrail’s director of talent and resources, Valerie Todd. I found her testimony extremely impressive. Crossrail needed some 3,500 skilled workpeople. It realised that it had not nearly enough people, so it set about training them with three main aims: to ensure that those who came on site recognised what safety precautions were necessary; to inspire future talent; and to provide local jobs.
Crossrail has taken on more than 300 apprentices and linked them with local schools. It has gone to the local schools and recruited apprentices from areas where it has been working. Some 39% of them are from black, Asian and ethnic minority groups and 20% are women, quite a number of whom have come in through both the construction and civil engineering areas, but also to some of the secretarial and administrative areas. This also applied to subcontractors. Crossrail worked very closely with its subcontractors. As Ms Todd has said:
“They all knew that if they were going to bid for our work they were going to have to support us in achieving these goals”.
Both these examples of what has been achieved by a deliberate attempt to use public procurement to raise the numbers of apprentices in private companies are very inspiring. They have clearly achieved well. Both are planned examples. As drafted, the amendment purely says that:
“The apprenticeship targets set for prescribed public bodies under subsection (1) may include apprenticeship agreements entered into by sub-contractors working for the prescribed public body”.
It is not a “must”; it is a “may”. We are not saying that they have to, but it is a useful way of doing it and I suggest that it is one we should back. Using public procurement to promote apprenticeships is something that has been widely discussed and approved of. It would be nice to see the Government doing something about it. I beg to move.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I rise to support the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. She has quoted two contracts. I had a personal involvement with both, ensuring that there were targets and that we met them. They were both very good, but one of the last points that the noble Baroness made was that Crossrail ensured that not only the main company but its supply chain, which was distributed throughout the country, had an apprenticeship target. I would like to see a “must” rather than a “may”, but if the Government said that they accept the amendment, that would be a step forward and an important signal. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I concur with all that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said. This problem has been raised again and again. I think that the noble Baroness said that there should be some examples of best practice employers. We need to look at why they can take on young people in these circumstances to become good-quality employees capable of completing apprenticeships. Let us look at those employers who are putting this into practice; there may not be many, but there will be some.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
I cited the example of Birmingham City Council. Both Crossrail and the Olympic park set themselves targets.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
Perish the thought: my humble apologies to my noble friend. I welcome this, perhaps because I had anticipated this debate. The Minister indicated that she would be dealing with quality, so I presume that this is the occasion on which she will deal with it. In the debate on the statutory instrument, I raised the issue of the Ofsted report quoted in the Times, which states:
“Some apprentices were not aware that they were classed as such, while others did not receive broader training or support to improve their English and maths. In the retail, catering and care industries, inspectors found apprentices cleaning floors, making coffee or serving sandwiches. Other employers used apprenticeships—which are wholly government-funded for those aged 16 to 18 and part-funded for older apprentices—to accredit the existing skills of their staff, Ofsted said. Sir Michael will tell business leaders in the West Midlands”,
where this survey took place,
“that employers, teachers and training providers are among the ‘guilty parties’ who must improve. ‘The fact that only 5 per cent of our youngsters go into an apprenticeship at 16 is little short of a disaster,’ he will say”.
That is a really serious and worrying criticism given the number of apprenticeships in the areas that he described.
The noble Earl, Lord Courtown, gave us a letter today. I have had a chance only to skim through it and think about whether it really does give an assurance that quality will be capable of being achieved in the drive to increase by a significant amount the number of apprenticeships. In the letter he says:
“An ‘approved English apprenticeship agreement’ carries the status of a contract of service. That means that employment and health and safety laws apply. The apprenticeship agreement confirms that the apprentice is undertaking an apprenticeship and specifies the standard they are working towards completing”.
That is good. I will not quote everything in the letter, but he then says:
“In addition to this, we have also introduced a new ‘Statement of Commitment’ which is signed by the employer, training provider and apprentice and sets out the key expectations, roles and responsibilities of each party involved in the apprenticeship and complements the approved English apprenticeship agreement”.
That is okay. However, what I really wanted to know was how we are going to check that, though they may have signed these agreements, they are actually delivering what they say they will. He said:
“In addition, the Skills Funding Agency … runs the apprenticeships helpline which was given an expanded remit in the summer, enabling anyone involved in an apprenticeship—not just the apprentice—to raise concerns about any element of how the apprenticeship is being delivered”.
The next sentence I found really interesting and I would welcome a comment from the Minister:
“The SFA have rigorous checks in place and have embarked on a programme of staff training to ensure that these issues are dealt with effectively”.
What exactly does that mean? There are an awful lot of apprenticeships going on. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, talked about mystery shoppers. I do not know whether the SFA will be the mystery shoppers, but a serious point is being raised. How are we going to ensure a number of things: that the quality of an apprenticeship is actually being delivered as per the contract, and that the training provider, in allocating a young person to an employer, is confident that that employer has a track record of delivering apprenticeships? How will we ensure that it is a safe working environment? I raised this issue previously. We had the appalling situation, I think just over a year or so ago, where a young apprentice went to work in the morning and never returned home—they died in an appalling workplace environment. Are we serious about enhancing the status of apprenticeships and ensuring that parents feel confident about the quality of apprenticeships?
The comment in the letter:
“The SFA have rigorous checks in place and have embarked on a programme of staff training to ensure that these issues are dealt with effectively”,
refers back to a point raised by my noble friend Lady Corston, who is not currently in the Room. She talked about young people employed for very short periods of time in what purported to be an apprenticeship but clearly was not. I have not heard of any periods as short as that, but certainly the Government declared that they would not support apprenticeships being described as such if they were for less than a year, which most people would say is about as short as one could get for an apprenticeship. Some might express concern that the period of time ought to be longer. However, my concern is whether the Skills Funding Agency will be able to deliver for the Government in terms of ensuring that there is real quality in apprenticeships.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
My Lords, we on these Benches broadly agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said. There is no doubt that the push for numbers has meant quantity at the expense of quality. Only 6% of 16 to 18 year-olds go into an apprenticeship and about 80% of the apprenticeships that have been created have been taken up by people who are already in jobs. They have been doing a relatively low-level apprenticeship—what is known as the level 2 apprenticeship—which does no more than rubber stamp, giving them a qualification for the work that they have already been doing.
All that is detailed in the Ofsted report. I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Young, that Ofsted does inspect apprenticeship providers, and a report such as this, which is very damning indeed of the current system of apprenticeships, should wake the Government up to what has been proceeding. My noble friend Lord Stoneham and I have a subsequent amendment about higher-level apprenticeships. It is very sad that the number of apprenticeships at the moment undertaken at higher levels—even at level 3, which is the equivalent of A-level, let alone the proper technician, the old HND level, level 4, or level 5—is minimal. We are talking about 1% or 2% of apprenticeships. Those are the intermediate-level qualifications and skills that we desperately need in this country, but we are just not training people to that level at the moment.
To some extent, the whole business of creating 3 million apprenticeships is pulling the wool over people’s eyes as to precisely what we are doing about skills. I think that the Government are well aware of that and many of the reforms in hand at the moment are an attempt to raise the quality and answer the sorts of questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson.
In Clause 19, the Bill defines what is a statutory apprenticeship. That is an important beginning, but we need to keep a wary eye out as to precisely how all this is carried through: what a statutory apprenticeship means and the quality of provision.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
We have already talked about the Ofsted report and the rather negative picture it paints of problems with the present level of apprenticeships, but one thing we have not talked about very much is the importance of trying to fill the skills gaps by the training of those at the higher levels.
The big skills gaps are particularly in engineering and construction and at technician level with STEM subjects. These gaps used to be filled by the concept of the HND, or the equivalent of the foundation degrees, but we have seen an enormous drop in the number of HNDs and foundation degrees being undertaken in the past few years. The number of young people going through to these higher-level apprenticeships—above level 3—is absolutely minute, yet it is vital that many more young people should progress through. Having done a satisfactory apprenticeship, perhaps coming in with their A-levels, they could go directly into a level 4 or level 5 apprenticeship; or those who have started by doing a level 2 apprenticeship, enjoyed it and gained a lot from it, could be given the opportunity to move up to level 4 or level 5, the degree-equivalent levels. We are extremely anxious that the vocational route should be seen as equivalent to the typical academic route. It is very important that it acquires this status. Only if we see a fairly substantial number of young people being able to move through the progression routes in apprenticeships to these higher-level apprenticeships will we see this.
The amendment, which calls for a report on the number of higher-level apprenticeships that shall be stipulated, requires us to concentrate on this issue. I beg to move.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I support the noble Baroness’s amendment. She is right about the need to increase the number of higher-level apprenticeships. As I understand it, from a briefing I had from SEMTA, part of the problem is getting young people to see that this is not an either/or choice between a vocational and an academic route. People with the highest level of qualification feel that, if they are to progress to a degree, they have to go down the academic route. There are lots of opportunities for them to go down the higher-level apprenticeship route. The apprenticeships are there; we are not getting the take-up. This is another point on which to emphasise the importance of career guidance if we are to solve this problem.
The noble Baroness is right to draw attention to this part of the regulation. It is a useful and necessary emphasis. I referred earlier to the number of engineering and STEM apprenticeships that will be needed over the next five to 10 years. It is estimated to be 830,000. Not all of those will be higher level, but a significant number will.
Duty to Participate in Education or Training (Alternative Ways of Working) Regulations 2013
Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Sharp of Guildford
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I have a couple of points before the Minister sits down. Her answer on public procurement was slightly different this time. Last time it seemed to be emphatic that there were legal barriers. I am challenging that. That does not appear to be the case, and I would welcome the Minister taking that away and giving me a more considered answer on that issue. I am quoting from the UK Office of Government Commerce guide.
I encourage the Government to look again. The Minister cited the large employers. Yes, they are good and if they were all like them we would not have a problem, but the difficulty we face is the point that the Minister made herself. Places are vastly oversubscribed. The demand is huge. We will raise the demand even further when we raise the participation age. My question to the Government is how we are going to meet that demand. Although the overall picture looks good, we still face the problem that in the 16 to 19 year-old age group there is a drop. I do not raise that to score any political point. I want the Government to succeed in this area, but somehow I do not detect enough urgency in the Government’s approach to this.
The more you meet young people—I go out and speak to lots of sixth formers—the more you realise the chances of a group of them getting more and more disillusioned and saying, “What is the point? When I get to the end of this what are my chances of getting a job?”. We know what the figures are for unemployment in various parts of the country.
We really should be straining every sinew to ensure that we give a work experience or job opportunity to every young person. That should be the target, and not at some distant point. If we do not do that, we will be in danger of creating another lost generation, and a generation that becomes disillusioned does not always respond in the most constructive way, as we witnessed not all that long ago. Therefore, I hope that the Government will reflect on this. There are lots of good intentions within these two statutory instruments and I do not challenge any of those.
There is one other point to which the Minister might reply in writing. We also need to check on the quality of training that employers provide. We know that lots of young people are going into a job. For those who want to do so and can get a job, that is great, but we want to make sure that every employer who takes them on has a proper training programme laid out, otherwise that will be another objective. I am not sure whether that was covered in the Minister’s response. If she does not have the answer to it now, I would welcome a reply in writing. Other than that, we will be supporting these instruments.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
Perhaps I may pose one further question to the Minister. Chapter 2 of Part 1 of the Act places quite a number of obligations on local authorities—in particular, the rather difficult obligation of chasing up and identifying the young persons not meeting the Section 2 duty. Guidance is to be published on the Department for Education website, but I wonder when it is likely to be published and what proposals it is likely to make. Given that the diversity of schooling now means that it is not necessarily so easy to chase up what young people are doing and how they are participating, I think that this is going to be quite a difficult task for local authorities.
Picking up the point that the noble Lord, Lord Young, made—
Apprenticeships (Alternative English Completion Conditions) Regulations 2012
Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Sharp of Guildford(12 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
My Lords, I too would like to thank the Minister for her explanation of the statutory instrument and I apologise for arriving late. The Committee moved on more quickly than I had anticipated.
I have two questions. First, am I right in thinking that these alternative regulations apply to relatively few young people? Given that this is an Olympic year, perhaps the numbers under Schedule 3 are rather greater than they might otherwise be, but the numbers under Schedule 1 are relatively small. On the issue of those made redundant, it will be impossible to tell because we do not know who might be made redundant. However, the total number of young people to whom these instruments might apply is relatively small.
The other thing to note, of course, is that these regulations are the result of an amendment that was carried when we discussed the Bill. At that point, we discussed at some length what would happen to those who were made redundant, and this has been put in specifically to make sure that there is a way forward for those who have more or less completed their apprenticeships. I am very pleased to see that. Perhaps the Minister could respond on the relative numbers in relation to the total number of apprenticeships.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I too thank the Minister for her explanation. I make no apologies for repeating a number of questions and concerns expressed by my honourable friend in the other place, Mr Gordon Marsden, as we—the royal “we”—are still awaiting written responses from the Minister.
On the question of quality, I was looking at the report of the Eighth Delegated Legislation Committee and read through the Minister’s contribution. At one point, he said:
“There are those who feel that I have gone too far on quality”.—[Official Report, Commons, Eighth Delegated Legislation Committee, 17/4/12; col. 3.]
I do not think that we have gone too far on quality, even allowing for a certain amount of his ministerial flamboyance, as I would describe it, in a nice way. I do not question his integrity or commitment on this issue but I do think there is no room for complacency
I listened carefully to what the noble Baroness said in her opening statement, where she described a fairly traditional approach to an apprenticeship. I do not know if noble Lords had the opportunity to watch a recent “Panorama” programme on apprenticeships which showed, unfortunately, a significant amount of exploitation of young people, who were led to believe that they were going to get training from this particular subcontractor. There was little or no training whatever. It was in no way the kind of quality we should expect.