Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Norwood Green and Baroness Mobarik

Monday 26th January 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, we support these amendments. I will preface my remarks by reminding us that in many circumstances this is a matter of life and death. Often the whistleblower finds that his or her life is turned upside down for a considerable period of time and they are put under enormous stress. The lives of the general public can also be affected, as we know from some of the first cases, for example that of the paediatric unit in Bristol. We know that when large organisations get it wrong, they put people and the public at risk, sometimes in extreme circumstances. It is right to remind ourselves of that, and of how much courage it takes for an individual in a large organisation to bring themselves to the point when they feel they have to whistleblow. They might have gone through the procedure of trying to alert their first line manager or even somebody further up the management chain, and still have failed to get any recognition that there was a real problem to be addressed.

We therefore think that the amendments proposed by my noble friend Lord Wills are reasonable; they are justifiable in trying to sort out whether a worker is in fact a whistleblower and is ensured protection. That is extremely important. The amendment enables workers who have been wrongly identified as having made a protected disclosure to be protected under PIDA. Trying to ensure that gagging clauses are finally rooted out is surely another important amendment, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to it. The National Audit Office concluded that many individuals believed that they were gagged regardless of whether or not this was actually the case. Anything that makes that situation clearer and provides adequate protection surely is worth while.

I do not think I need to take much time over the question of whether or not we should include student medical professionals. It seems necessary and I hope that the Government will be sympathetic to it.

Amendment 65 deals with blacklisting. Although we believe that there should be a further inquiry into the general nature of blacklisting, my noble friend Lord Wills has suggested a very reasonable approach to what happens to an individual who, having already lost their job through no fault of their own, finds themselves in a situation where they are unable to gain any further employment, which is surely appalling.

Amendment 63 seeks to ensure that there is not a get-out clause where an employer can suggest that instead of something being a disclosure of information where there is a protected circumstance, that can be got round by considering that it in fact was an allegation, which does not give the employee protection.

I do not need to go into an awful lot more detail because my noble friend Lord Wills and the noble Lord, Lord Low, gave a very detailed analysis. But I will deal with the point about the whistleblowing ombudsman, if only to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Low. One can always make the point about another layer of bureaucracy but when somebody finds themselves in the position of being a whistleblower, we would like to think that these situations are dealt with speedily and promptly but all the evidence tells us that unfortunately these cases go on, in many cases for years, and surely at the end of the day what the individual wants is justice. Having somebody who is genuinely independent as the last port of call is a worthwhile suggestion.

For those reasons, we support these amendments and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Mobarik (Con)]

My Lords, as a new Member of the House, it has been fascinating to follow this Bill through Committee. I am sorry I was unable to speak at Second Reading but I just wanted to say that I support the Bill as a whole, and Clause 144 on whistleblowing. However, listening to noble Lords, there seems to be a lot of new material here that could hold up this important Bill. I should like to hear from my noble friend the Minister what else may be planned outside the Bill on this very important issue.