Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and Baroness Hayman

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, this is the first amendment to be introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. We all acknowledge her extensive experience and deep knowledge of this issue, as both a doctor and a professor of palliative medicine. Like my noble friend Lord Shinkwin, I expect noble Lords across the House to benefit from the noble Baroness’s advice and guidance as we seek to improve this Bill through Committee.

I have listened carefully to the debate and it seems that there are two related but conceptually separate issues going on. One is a valuable, perhaps somewhat philosophical, debate about the difference between “can” and “able to”; in other words, just because you can take a decision, does it always mean that you are able to take a decision? It is an interesting debate to have.

There is a separate but related issue about how one reflects that or the conclusion one comes to in law. That is really the issue raised by the amendments to Clause 3 in the next group. As both the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, pointed out—and as set out in the explanatory note for this amendment—Amendment 2 is linked to Amendment 115 from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, which seeks to replace Clause 3 with a new clause. To that extent, the debate we have just had is an hors d’oeuvre before the main course of group 3. Perhaps this is a restaurant that serves its hors d’oeuvres in larger portions than normal.

For reasons that I hope are obvious—I mean no discourtesy to the Committee—I may not be able to stay until the end of group 3, so I hope to take a quick moment now to explain this interrelationship. The proposed new Clause 3 is a considered amendment that challenges the Bill’s reliance on the definition of “capacity” under the Mental Capacity Act. It seeks to make special provision in the Bill for how the definition of lack of capacity is to be dealt with, and it touches on important information and the ability to make decisions. In particular, it builds in information relating to palliative care. I look forward to the Minister’s response to this group and I will read her response to the group of amendments on Clause 3, in due course, and the noble and learned Lord the sponsor’s response to both groups. Although we will debate these two groups separately, they seem to me to be intimately connected.

With some trepidation, I will respond to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. I am conscious of her experience in both this and the other House, which considerably exceeds mine on both counts. However, I touched on this point at Second Reading and, respectfully and certainly from my analysis, there does not appear to be any constitutional reason why this House should not take its time considering the Bill or even, should it wish to, reject it as a non-manifesto Bill that is also a Private Member’s Bill.

For noble Lords who are interested, there are some useful articles on this point from Professor Mark Elliott, who is a professor of public law at the University of Cambridge. I refer to him because of two important features. First, he is a professor of public law at the University of Cambridge. Secondly, when I was a Minister, he did not agree with me on anything so, if we agree on this, it is likely that we are actually right.

In all seriousness, the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, made a point that I made at Second Reading, which is particularly important in the context of this Bill. A number of Members of Parliament said, both in and outside the Chamber, that they voted for the Bill on the express basis that they relied on this House to give it proper scrutiny. If the noble Baroness wants to intervene, of course I will give way.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

I obviously did not express myself very clearly. I was not in any way suggesting that this was a government Bill to which the conventions applied or that there was any reason why we should not properly scrutinise it; I absolutely stand by that, and I do not think that there is any bar to us doing that. What I was suggesting to the Committee, respectfully, is that it should take very seriously the fact that this Bill has been considered and approved by the other place; and that, therefore, in the conduct of our proceedings, we should make sure that we do things in a considered and responsible way. To speak completely personally, I think that this House should be able to vote on amendments—obviously, it has the right to vote at Third Reading—but we should reach decisions on this Bill in an appropriate timeframe. It would not be satisfactory to anyone if this were simply extended and extended so that we never actually reached a view.

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for intervening. If there is a difference between us, it may be one of emphasis and not substance, because, respectfully, I do not disagree with anything she just said. As I said in my opening remarks, the Official Opposition’s position from the Front Bench is that we want this House to be able to do proper scrutiny.