Child Trust Funds

Debate between Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Monday 11th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, let me give a short answer to a long question. It is not a question of whether going to court should or should not be necessary: it is necessary because Parliament passed the Mental Capacity Act, which requires it. In 1995, the Law Commission recommended a small payments scheme. That was not taken up by Parliament, but I am now consulting on it, because it seems to me that that is the right way forward.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the National Mental Capacity Forum. Will the consultations specifically consider how to exclude coercion, malintent or diversion of the person’s funds for use other than purely in their interest, if there is no lasting power of attorney or court-appointed deputy?

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has put her finger on the point. What we have to do here is balance the need to protect vulnerable young adults—because that is what they are—with their desire and that of their parents and guardians to access small amounts of money speedily and efficiently. It is that balance which the consultation will be aimed at.

Child Trust Funds: People with a Learning Disability

Debate between Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, people need a court order because, in the Mental Capacity Act, Parliament provided protection for young adults to make sure that their funds—and the funds are theirs, not their parents’—can be accessed only by people with a proper court order. The working group meets monthly, and the next meeting is later this week. It has engaged with people across the industry and, as I said a few moments ago, because of the work of the working group, we are now amending the GOV.UK pages to provide more information to parents in that regard as well.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, should be congratulated on the Mental Capacity Act, which is a precious piece of legislation that protects the most vulnerable? Does he agree that any erosion by creating exceptions to its established processes would fail to ensure long-term provision for the vulnerable person’s welfare as an adult over 18, while increasing the risk of child trust funds being diverted without accountability?

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I respectfully agree that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, should be congratulated on his work on the Mental Capacity Act. He described it as

“a vitally important piece of legislation, and one that will make a real difference to the lives of people who may lack mental capacity.”

I respectfully agree. I also congratulate the noble Baroness on hosting a very good briefing event on 17 June. I urge all Members of the House who are interested in this topic to look at the materials from that event, which are available on the Social Care Institute for Excellence website.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Wednesday 21st April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I am mindful of the views which have been expressed across the House. I start with a point on behalf of the Government and of myself. So far as the Government are concerned, like the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, they are committed to the welfare of children—that is not a phrase with which any of us would disagree. For myself, if I may accept the point put by my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, I do have a human side. Notwithstanding that I am a lawyer and a Government Minister, something of a human side still pokes through occasionally.

There is nothing between us on the aim; what is between us is the means. I therefore remind the House of two points. First, of course anything said by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in this area has to be heard with care and listened to diligently, but it is the case already that the vast majority of people in child contact centres will have to have certain checks through NACCC accreditation and because of the local authority obligations. That is the first general point.

The second general point in response to one of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, is that the fact that the memorandum of understanding is being updated and revised is no indication whatever that there is a problem with it. For example, one of the revisions which is being made is to substitute the name of the previous President of the Family Division, Sir James Munby, with the name of the new president, Sir Andrew McFarlane. Updating and revision of an MoU does not indicate that there is a problem. A lot of very good documents are continually updated and revised.

One is therefore back to the essential point, which is: what is the evidence which underpins the proposed amendment? It is all very well to talk of a loophole, but the real question is whether there is an underlying problem. It is the evidence base with which we have concerns. I say with genuine respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, that anecdotal evidence is not a sufficient basis in this area on which we should be legislating. Of course, staff must be trained and we must look to see whether there are legislative gaps, but we have to proceed on proper evidence.

So far as my email is concerned, I do not pull back from that at all; I stand by every single word of it. In particular, with regard to DBS checks, I am happy to repeat from the Dispatch Box precisely what I said in the email: “I am ready to explore whether there is a case for ensuring that there are appropriate arrangements in place for anyone who seeks to set themselves up as a provider of child contact centres to be subject to criminal record checks. The issue is that the regulations with regard to DBS are about eligibility for DBS checks, not whether they are mandatory.”

I suspect that where we end up is on the question of whether there is a proper basis to legislate in this space, given my assurances that we would be looking at the DBS point and that there is no cogent evidence that the current system is not working. The protocol is in place and has been endorsed at the highest level by the judiciary and Cafcass. There are statutory and regulatory requirements in the public law cases. Indeed, the only first-hand evidence which we have heard this afternoon from the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, has been that the matter is working well. As he confirmed, he sends his cases to an accredited centre only.

That is the position. Even at this late stage, I respectfully invite the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all who have spoken, and particularly to my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss for her support, which I view as weighty. I stress to the House that a call for common standards seems to have come through in all the speeches in support of my amendment. I am slightly concerned that the Government decry an evidence base because I have seen no evidence that they have undertaken a systematic review of the standards of all the child contact centres and services around, nor have they looked at them systematically. When they asked for evidence, we brought it, and did what we could in the time available, and now it is being dismissed as anecdotal. We have gone round in circles and I therefore wish to test the opinion of the House.

Child Trust Funds: Children with Learning Disabilities

Debate between Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Thursday 25th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. We have looked at the legislative options. Amending primary legislation is not likely to be quick or easy. However, I must emphasise that the rules of the Court of Protection are a matter for the judiciary, not the Government. We therefore have to work with the judiciary, which I know is committed to this issue. Indeed, the Court of Protection has been working hard during the pandemic to ensure that its business is kept up to date.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I declare that I chair the National Mental Capacity Forum. The Mental Capacity Act aims to protect against exploitation and support decision-making, but Covid lockdowns have caused delays in the Court of Protection. How is the backlog of these financial cases being mitigated by digital processes to ensure that the welfare of a young person is appropriately safeguarded, in particular if they are in a care home or have other care arrangements?

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that fundamentally this is about safeguarding the interests of the young person. On the Court of Protection, staff have been coming into the court throughout the pandemic to make sure that it can continue to function. They are putting in place new digital ways of working to streamline and simplify their processes and will ensure that there is as little administrative and procedural delay as possible.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Report stage
Wednesday 10th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

I will be brief. On the first point that my noble friend raised about evidence, I accept that people have done their best in the short time available. However, with respect, the points that I made about the high-level nature of that evidence stand. At the moment, we are not persuaded that there is a need to legislate in this area. On the second point about the loophole, I would be repeating what I said earlier. For the reasons that I set out, the position at the moment is that the use of unaccredited child services is rare. In circumstances where they are used by local authorities, that would be covered by their statutory duty under the Children Act. In those circumstances, we are not persuaded that the amendment is required or would even necessarily be effective.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]]

I am most grateful to the Minister for his fulsome reply and for trying to get to grips with this issue, but I point out that it has been 14 years since the need for standards was originally raised. I did not mention some cases in my speech today because I have not been able to check them out in detail—we could not track down the details of the services—but I have names of services that I would be prepared to share in confidence with the Minister. I believe that there is evidence that this area is unregulated, that there is a gap and that children are at risk now, today. If we are dealing with domestic abuse, we must not leave children vulnerable. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Learning Disabilities: Child Trust Funds

Debate between Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Thursday 11th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, the reason is that it is not for the Ministry of Justice to give its blessing to private sector schemes and to say whether they do or do not comply with the relevant legislation. That legislation is important: it is there to protect people. If the private sector wants to put in a scheme, that is a matter for the private sector. So far as my department is concerned, we need to make sure, so far as we can, that the court rules and procedures are appropriate, proportionate and accessible.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]]

I declare an interest as chair of the National Mental Capacity Forum. As Covid lockdown difficulties for the Court of Protection have now led to delays of around 20 weeks for uncontested applications, can the Government confirm that forms marked “Urgent” are prioritised and digital options are being explored by the court, to improve access while retaining the important protections from the MCA against exploitation or misuse of funds?

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Lord Wolfson of Tredegar and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 1st February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for that point. As I said in my response to the main debate, even unaccredited centres are still subject to the various requirements that I set out, but I am very conscious of the noble Lord’s expertise in this area. In a previous answer, I committed to writing a long letter to him. I do not want to add to it now, but perhaps he and I can have discussions, with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, which include the point he raises. I hope that is helpful.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]]

I am most grateful to the Minister for his response, and for saying that he will meet me and, I hope, the other noble Lords who have put their names to this amendment and whose experience is extremely important. I find it difficult to understand why the Government do not want to close this loophole. It seems terribly important to ensure that there is adequate safeguarding of children. I have a real worry that the commissioning process is more likely to fail now that there are increasing pressures on local authorities, and that the need to ensure accreditation has become even greater. Sadly, in some areas, the local authority does not have a great deal of choice as to the services that are there, so I would question the flexibility to pick and choose implied in the Minister’s response. I will certainly make every effort, with those who have co-sponsored the amendment, to get as much data as we can for him.

As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, who certainly knows more about this than any of the rest of us, highlighted, this is the only service which is not nationally accredited. This seems remarkably dangerous. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, rightly pointed out that it is self-referrers who may use centres that are not accredited, and they will quite often have alcohol, drug or other problems they are trying to sort out. How they behave towards the children there must be observed carefully by people who know what they are looking for and have been properly trained, and where the whole service has been assessed against some standard criteria. In terms of the commissioning process, I would have thought that it would help local authorities to have those standards against which to check the services that they have on their patch and that they may be putting money into.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Burt of Solihull, pointed out, in a way it is completely at variance with the whole principle of the Bill if we do not include an amendment, with either this wording or something similar, in the Bill. The whole Bill is aimed at decreasing domestic abuse and protecting people from further abuse. It is not meant to be a straitjacket; it is meant to be a really supportive framework. However, if we do not have high standards in that framework, I fear that some of the most vulnerable—that is, the children—will drop through the gaps and we will see more children getting killed.

While for the moment I will withdraw the amendment —I am grateful for the support of everyone, including the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb—I think we will need to come back to this at a later stage. I look forward to meeting the Minister. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.