Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Willis of Knaresborough and Lord Touhig

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 26 and 33. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, I also emphasise the importance of Amendment 19. While it is a rather small amendment, it has huge significance.

Talking to people from Health Education England recently, I was struck by the desire in the Francis report about the whole issue of practical training. When a significant amount of the training of medics, doctors and nurses is carried out in practical situations, one asks how you can get the sort of situations that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to. When nurses spend 50% of their time in practical situations, how do they come out of their training not ready to be deployed in certain areas? To be fair, when you see the time and the effort that is put into mentoring in many of these settings and the quality of that mentoring, you start to realise that there is a big problem. I hope that on Report we can bring back some of the issues relating to mentoring, or at least get some satisfaction from the Minister that this issue will be taken incredibly seriously in health education. If it is not, we will continue to have people who in theory are trained well but in practical terms are really not as fit for purpose as they should be. That will not be their fault; it will be our fault.

Amendment 26 very much echoes the thoughts behind Amendment 27. I particularly welcome in Amendment 27 the idea of having a 10-year plan. In fact, five years is short-term. It is better than what we have at the moment, but a 10-year plan is a really good idea, and I am sorry that I did not table that amendment. I saw it but thought that we would not want two amendments along the same lines.

On Amendment 26, Clause 85(1) of the Care Bill defines Health Education England’s responsibility as ensuring that,

“a sufficient number of persons with the skills and training to work as health care workers for the purposes of the health service is available to do so throughout England”.

Who could disagree with that? What a noble suggestion. While that would clearly include both healthcare support workers and nurses, the mandate, which was helpfully provided by the Minister before this debate, sets out a strategic national role in relation to medicine, dentistry and pharmacy in paragraph 5.2.6, and proposes a five-year workforce plan for “smaller specialties and professions” in paragraph 5.2.7, but provides little information on how the nursing workforce or the healthcare support workforce is to be undertaken and implemented. Does that not tell us all we need to know about what the priorities still are? While we have good words within the Bill, we do not have anything within the mandate that backs them up in a real sense. Midwives and health visitors suddenly appear, but I think that the commitment to having a comprehensive workforce under a five-year plan is worth really striving for.

Amendment 33 looks at the future guidance and standards for safe levels of staffing. I have a real problem with allocating numbers. When I was in another place, I remember arguing with the then Government about class sizes for years 1 and 2 in primary schools, where there had to be 30 children or fewer and the 31st child had to go somewhere else. You realise that, depending on the setting, you can do all sorts of different things. What we must not do is tie down the hands of high-quality management in being able to deploy staff in the most appropriate way. What matters is getting the mix of staff absolutely right. I hope that we will return to the question of staffing levels because it is fundamental but, frankly, we could go down the wrong road if we took it too seriously.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, time and again in this House the matter of training of health professionals so that they better understand how to support and care for people with autism has been debated. Here, I should declare an interest as a vice-president of the National Autistic Society. We know that key professionals such as GPs and community care assessors still do not have a good enough understanding of autism.

Amendment 24, about which the noble Lord, Lord Rix, has spoken and to which I have added my name in support, if taken on board by the Government would at least ensure that the Secretary of State would be required to consult vulnerable people, including those with autism, their carers and groups such as the National Autistic Society, Mencap and others on matters affecting education and training that will be provided by Health Education England.

Only one in three adults with autism in this country told the National Autistic Society in a survey that in their experience social workers have a good understanding of autism. There is a well established correlation between the professionals’ understanding of autism and the degree of identification of needs among adults in that local authority area with the condition. Autism training can help ensure that adults with autism are correctly identified, and qualify for the support they need.

I recently served on the autism and aging commission, chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. Professor Francesca Happé gave evidence about the difficulties of picking up on autistic people’s needs. She said:

“This is a group that doesn’t self-present, doesn’t come and seek services, because of their difficulties of social interaction and communication and we absolutely owe it to them to go and find out what their needs are”.

For that reason, we need well trained people to support them.

The National Autistic Society’s excellent document, Push for Action: We Need to Turn the Autism Act into Action, made a very good case. It includes a very good case study by the mother of an adult with autism. Her name is Chloe, and she says:

“We got to the point where Peter couldn’t live at home, for his own and our safety. After moving around between people he knew and staying in a B&B, eventually he got a flat but he still doesn’t get any support. Social services don’t understand autism and how it affects him. They’re not asking the right questions. They say, ‘How are you?’, and he says, ‘I’m fine’, so they come back to me and say, ‘He’s fine, he doesn’t need any help’. But of course he says he’s fine at that point because he probably is at that point”.

He does not trust them, so he says he is fine in order to make them go away because he does not believe that they understand or are able to help him.

“He had a mental capacity assessment and they asked him about managing his money. He told them that he was saving money for a motorbike but he doesn’t have any money. He can’t manage his money. He gets into all sorts of trouble”.

Chloe concludes:

“I’ve given up asking for support. Me and my husband now do everything ourselves … Now we have no expectations of what ‘services’ should be providing”.

That is just one example of the lack of trained staff having an adverse impact on the life of an autistic person and their family.

I hope the Government will ensure that autism training is included in the core curricula for doctors, nurses and other clinicians, in accordance with the commitments under the Adult Autism Strategy. It is absolutely necessary that vulnerable groups, including people with autism, are consulted about priorities for training so that decision-makers become aware of the gaps in knowledge and understanding among health professionals.

Ultimately, the Government must tackle the issue by including autism training in the core curricula for doctors, nurses and other clinicians, as they committed to do in the 2010 Adult Autism Strategy. People with a learning disability and/or autism have the right to the same quality of healthcare as those without. I believe that Amendment 24 is a good step forward in achieving that.