COP 27

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I note what the noble Lord says. Again, the Government have made it clear that they see nuclear as being a significant part of the equation. There will be further announcements in relation to that but I take note of what the noble Lord says.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I come back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Newby, about renewables: the need to have some form of battery holding the energy generated, which is also relevant to nuclear. If we do not have that capacity and the generation by wind or tide—or, indeed, nuclear—is during the night, when demand is low, we are not getting an efficient system. What attention are the Government giving to extending the pumped-storage schemes—we have one in Dinorwig in north-west Wales but, equally, others could be brought on stream—to ensure that cheap, clean energy is available when it is needed, generated originally by renewable sources?

[Lord True (Con)]

Again, my Lords, the Government say—it is not always popular—that we are in the period of transition and we need to be flexible and adaptable. I am not commenting on any specific schemes or proposals. Obviously, our intention is to do the very best we can to secure resilience and a greater degree of independence at home. The noble Lord is absolutely right to say that with that comes jobs. I believe that there are already some 430,000 jobs in low-carbon businesses and their supply chains across the country, which is not widely enough recognised outside your Lordships’ House. Since November 2020, nearly 68,000 green jobs across the UK economy have materialised or been supported or secured for the future by government policy. However, there is a balance, and as I said in response to an earlier question, we are reflecting on the broad spectrum of energy need at this time, particularly given the tragic situation with the Russian aggression in Ukraine.

Procurement Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Committee stage
Wednesday 13th July 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord True (Con)]

Well, I did try to get there but I had an intervention, then another intervention. It would be discourteous not to respond to—or be provoked by, as some may feel—the odd intervention. Is that not the give and take of debate, which is what our blessed Parliament is all about? If I have given the noble Lord incorrect advice, I will correct it, but what I have read out is the legal advice that I have been given.

Amendment 78A tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, provides that a Minister of the Crown may not introduce a Bill in either House of Parliament to amend or omit Clause 13, which relates to the Wales procurement policy statement, unless, as the noble Lord explained, Senedd Cymru has resolved by a majority of those present in voting to approve it. This is an uncongenial part for the noble Lord: the effect of this amendment would be to fetter the power of this and any future Parliament. The Government therefore cannot accept this amendment. However, as I mentioned earlier—he was kind enough to allude to this—we respect the devolution settlement and the competence of Wales on this matter. I have placed that and the degree of co-operation we have with the Welsh Government on the record in Hansard. That due respect for the devolution settlement is something that the Government aspire to see continue in this case, but we cannot accept the lock that he requests in the amendment.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I am grateful for and accept the integrity with which the Minister is putting that forward and the spirit in which he stated the difficulty that there would be with my amendment. None the less, he will be well aware that there are other forms of amendments that could be put forward, possibly on Report, to ensure that there is the necessary consultation and discussion before any changes in legislation take place. That form of words has appeared in other legislation. Could I invite him to consider that between now and Report? I think that that would be a good indication for those in Cardiff.

Procurement Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Committee stage
Monday 4th July 2022 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 1 I will speak to the first group of amendments. Before so doing, I give notice to the Committee that Amendment 528—which I discovered only this morning had been grouped with this group, but which refers to matters relating to the health service—has been degrouped, because it is logical and to the benefit of the Committee that we discuss issues relating to the NHS part of the Bill together. I will address all the other amendments in this group.

I start by acknowledging and sincerely apologising for the number of government amendments. At Second Reading, in what I thought was all candour at the time, I said that I recognised there were areas of the Bill that would need refinement in Committee. However, the volume of amendments is still regrettable. I assure noble Lords that many of the amendments in this group and others are narrowly focused and technical in nature. We are putting them forward now only to ensure that the Bill functions properly and effectively.

We have issued a Keeling schedule setting out where the range of government amendments will fit in if your Lordships are pleased, eventually, to accept them. The bulk of the amendments in this group and others do not change the general policy intent of the Bill. Indeed, some of them serve to reflect more fully the original policy objectives as set out in the Government’s Green Paper and subsequent responses to it. I know from discussions at Second Reading and in the engagement I have already had with many of your Lordships—which I undertake to continue, not only between Committee and Report but, in the light of concerns that have been expressed, during Committee to clarify anything that is concerning noble Lords—that many noble Lords wish to get closer to the original policy objectives. That is evident from the number of non-government amendments that have been proposed, which we will be discussing. That is not an indication necessarily that we will have a meeting of minds on those, but some of them flow from that.

In many cases the need for amendments has been highlighted by external organisations. We are grateful for their scrutiny and input into improving the Bill. The interconnected nature of the Bill inevitably means that a single small amendment to a definition in one clause leads to multiple amendments to reflect the same definition where it features in later clauses to ensure coherence and consistency. Obviously, that frequently happens in the passage of legislation.

I repeat that I accept with all sincerity that the number of government amendments is not welcome and is undesirable. However, their end effect, when your Lordships have had the opportunity to reflect on them fully, of providing greater legal clarity will be beneficial to the Bill as a whole and to the large procurement community that will use it for many years to come.

The first group contains some of the Government’s amendments with the most general effect on provisions in the Bill, though these remain technical in focus. Amendments in this group relate to the introduction of the concept of “covered procurement” and to the devolved Administrations.

The proposed new clause before Clause 1 includes technical amendments to the definition of procurement and, as I just said, the introduction of the term “covered procurement” to distinguish between the categories of contract subject to different obligations under the Bill. “Covered procurement” refers to those contracts fully regulated by the Bill’s provisions; “procurement” refers to those contracts that are less regulated but none the less catered for to an extent, such as the below-threshold contracts and international organisation procurement. These changes recognise obligations under various trade agreements. The group also contains a number of consequential amendments to reflect this amended definition throughout the Bill.

Other amendments in this group did not originate from the Government but were requested by the devolved Administrations to amend how the legislation applies in Wales or Northern Ireland. As I said at Second Reading, we have been very grateful for discussions with and input from colleagues in Wales and Northern Ireland. These amendments include a small number of derogations from particular provisions in the Bill where they do not align with those Administrations’ policy goals. We have listened to the concerns of the devolved Administrations, and I hope noble Lords will agree that it is sensible to make these changes at an early stage to ensure that we have legislation that works for all contracting authorities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I realise it is unusual to intervene on the opening speech, but it may be for the convenience of the Committee to understand the changes with regard to the devolved Administrations. Can the Minister confirm that these have all been agreed with the Welsh Government, in the case of Wales, and, where they relate to Northern Ireland, in Northern Ireland, or are there some here that, because of the time pressure, there has been no opportunity to discuss with the devolved Administrations?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I will have to be advised on that. I have been advised that they are the result of discussions. If that is not the case, I will set the position clearly and straightly when I come to wind up the debate. I have been led to believe, and know from my own involvement in the matter, that there has been a good deal of agreement between the United Kingdom Government and the Government of Wales. I will certainly confirm that in winding up.

The group also contains a number of technical amendments which are required to ensure that provisions relating to the Bill’s application in the devolved Administrations function properly.

To repeat what I said at Second Reading, I regret that the Scottish Government have opted not to join the Bill. They will retain their own procurement regulations in respect of devolved Scottish authorities. I am sure we would all welcome our Scottish friends if they wished to join the new system proposed by the Bill. Taxpayers and public services alike across the whole United Kingdom would benefit from that. However, at this juncture I am able to lay only those matters requested by the devolved Administrations in Wales and Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

Covid-19: National Memorial

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Wednesday 8th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend lays a gentle stiletto between my ribs. Apart from the humorous side of it, there is a very serious side to what my noble friend says. There is an unequivocal connection in the terms that he describes, which each of us should bear in mind and which we should all be well aware of.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, are not nurses and those working in care homes among those who gave most to save people during the pandemic? Would it not be a worthy way of recognising that to give them all a decent pay settlement?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not going to debate pay policy from the Dispatch Box, but I will take the noble Lord’s comments—to which I heard some assent in the House—and pass them on to colleagues in government.

UK Policy Implementation for Wales and Scotland

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government on what dates the Prime Minister will convene discussions with the First Ministers of Wales and Scotland regarding the co-ordinated implementation of the policies on which their respective governments were re-elected together with the implementation in Wales and Scotland of UK Government policies which impact on the responsibilities of the two devolved administrations.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister spoke to the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales, as well as the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, last week. In those discussions, he invited them to join him at a Covid recovery summit for discussion of shared challenges and future joint working.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, while I welcome the proposed meeting on Covid recovery, does the Minister accept that this dialogue should be in the context of a broader agenda, including a comprehensive reset of intergovernmental relationships? Is he aware that this is a fundamental issue in the context of the working of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act, which the Welsh Government regard as an unacceptable and unconstitutional encroachment on the devolution settlement? Do the UK Government recognise that a durable working relationship between the Governments depends on resolving this issue and establishing an acceptable system of co-decision-taking between the four nations? Will the Minister commit the UK Government to such an approach?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord’s welcome of the Prime Minister’s initiative. On intergovernmental relations, I laid a Statement before the House—I think on 21 March—on the significant progress made in those discussions. I am confident that further progress will be made on those co-operative instruments.

Covid-19: May Elections

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Thursday 25th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, like most people in this House, I have driven electors to polls and I anticipate a future when I myself might be driven. I can assure the noble Baroness that the arrangements that we are putting in place for emergency proxies right up to 5 pm on the day should ensure that anyone who is self- isolating or has tested positive for Covid-19 can still have their say in the elections without having to leave their residence. That will be the Government’s policy and is the assurance that I give the House.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, will the Minister clarify who is responsible for this round of elections in Wales? As he knows, the running of the Senedd elections is devolved, while the election of police commissioners in Wales has not yet been devolved, although the Silk commission set up by the Cameron Government recommended that the police service should be devolved in Wales, as in Scotland. Will he clarify whether the police commissioner elections could go ahead in Wales while not doing so in England, if Senedd elections go ahead as planned, or will we face unnecessary duplication of the cost of holding two separate rounds of elections in Wales?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I sincerely hope not. The noble Lord, in a sense, answered the first part of his question. The position is obviously that Senedd elections are the responsibility of the Welsh Government and police commissioner elections of the UK Government. We are working closely with the Welsh Government on planning for polls. The UK Government have confirmed that local, mayoral and police commissioner elections scheduled for 6 May will go ahead in England and Wales. A decision to postpone the Senedd elections would be for the Welsh Government but our understanding is that they have no plans to do so at this time. So I hope that all can go together.

House of Lords: Size

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Wednesday 27th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

I may be a little obtuse but I do not see the direct connection between general election expenditure and the House of Lords. The House of Lords, for which I have great reverence, is, contrary to many of the things said publicly, extremely good value for the outstanding service that it gives to the country.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, while I certainly support a smaller second Chamber, does the Minister appreciate the frustrations of those of us in smaller parties at the way in which the present arrangement systematically prevents such parties having as numerically strong a voice as they could expect under direct election? To enhance the second Chamber and reduce its size in a fair manner, direct elections would be a credible way forward.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I salute the noble Lord for his service to his party and his nation in this House. One of the pleasures that I have had at the Dispatch Box—it has not always been easy—has been hearing the very strong voice for Wales in this House, not only from the noble Lord’s party but from the Benches opposite and other parts of the House. I understand his point. Obviously, one major party, the Scottish National Party, does not offer nominations.

UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Thursday 10th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

I do not carry ministerial responsibility for public conveniences, if I am allowed to complete the sentence. So far as the planning contingencies for what may or may not happen after 31 December are concerned, I assure the noble Lord that all eventualities are taken into consideration.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, does the Prime Minister now realise that he cannot have his cake and eat it? But I limit myself to the Statement before us, which explicitly asserts that lamb may be sold from Montgomeryshire to Northern Ireland free of any tariff. If that meat is then sold on to the Irish Republic, will it be liable to the 76% tariff for fresh or chilled sheepmeat carcasses applicable in a no-deal scenario? At what point will that charge be levied, and by whom?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the arrangements we are discussing today relate to the protocol and movements between GB and NI and, indeed, NI and GB. Obviously, a future tariff regime between the United Kingdom and the European Union depends on the outcome of free trade negotiations, which are still continuing.

Covid-19: Devolved Administrations

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Friday 27th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I repeat what I said before. There is a public health responsibility, which is devolved, and obviously decisions are taken by the devolved Administrations on how they wish to apply and use those powers. As I indicated, a network of co-operation exists: I gave the example of over 20 calls involving my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the senior Ministers involved in the devolved Administrations, and the CMOs meet regularly. Christmas has been a good example, but we must work within the devolved structure and in line with how all those involved choose to operate it.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I very much agree that there should be close co-operation between the four Governments on arrangements to facilitate travel across the UK over the Christmas break, but does the Minister accept that the devolved regimes would find this very much easier if the Westminster Government gave them adequate notice of their intentions, to enable timely discussion to take place before final decisions were made? Co-operation is a two-way street. For it to blossom, it must be on the basis of mutual respect, but that has not always been evident from the Prime Minister over the past eight months.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have an arm’s-length brief on meetings, discussions and calls that have taken place at various levels, in addition to the continual engagement at official level. I am glad that noble Lords are pleased with the example of Christmas co-operation, but I think that the best way forward is to throw not stones but co-operation at each other. We have sought a co-ordinated approach wherever possible and where the evidence shows that this will make the response more effective. This co-ordination has taken place in many aspects of the response, including travel corridors, higher education and the work of the Joint Biosecurity Centre.

Civil Servants: Public Procurement

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Thursday 29th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, Ministers are bound by the Ministerial Code and civil servants are bound by the Civil Service Management Code, from which I have quoted. Special advisers are also required to conduct themselves in accordance with the code of conduct for special advisers and the Civil Service Code.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister accepts that the public procurement system has to be whiter than white, I am sure, but does he accept that the registration of interests is as much to protect public servants as it is to protect the wider public interest in the objective and open placement of any public contracts?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, these issues are important; in my initial reply, I tried to convey the importance that I attach to probity. I recognise the role of transparency therein. I have told the House about the current good practice inside government. I personally believe that it is efficacious but obviously I listen to everything said by noble Lords.

EU: Visa-free Short-term Travel Mobility

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Wednesday 21st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I draw attention to my registered interests. Does the Minister accept that performing musicians need the facility to travel at short notice to work in other parts of our continent? We are repeatedly told that the soft power of cultural exchanges is the UK’s strongest lever in today’s international world. Why are the Government willing to contemplate a no-deal Brexit which will strangle that influence within the European setting?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have referred more than once to the Government’s efforts to assist short-term activity in the course of the discussions we are having on mode 4. Obviously, movement and activity within different member states is an issue for them and for the EU. I repeat to the House that this is an important area. I believe that we have made generous, important and significant proposals and, as I say, discussions are ongoing.

House of Lords: Number of Members

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord sat in this House when it was much larger than it is today. So far as stuffing the House is concerned, Mr Blair put 374 Peers in this place.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, my party, Plaid Cymru, has four times as many Members in the House of Commons as it has in this Chamber. If the proportions were correct, we would have a Chamber of just 200 Members. Given that that is not going to happen, is the only way for smaller parties to get a fair voice here by having a fully elected Chamber that would deliver greater representational fairness and give this Chamber the political credibility that it currently lacks?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the voice of Wales is extraordinarily important, and it is well served in this House by some of the outstanding Members who come from that great Principality. The noble Lord makes a point of policy. The last coalition Government presented to your Lordships and the other place proposals for an elected House, but they did not at that time find favour.

EU: Customs Arrangements

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Wednesday 8th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, I hope it will be comprehensive. We recognise our duty to business and are grateful for the engagement there has been on the developing process so far. For example, the noble Lord will know about the ongoing discussions with the Channel Tunnel rail freight steering group, of which there was a meeting only last week.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

Will the guidance to which the Minister referred cover the issues arising in the Port of Holyhead, where the physical space is not adequate to accommodate the additional customs operations or hold lorries awaiting clearance? Will he confirm that Her Majesty’s Government accept responsibility for getting this sorted? When will they get a move on and get it done?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I am in that invidious position where advice is shortly to be published and I am not going to pre-empt what is in it. But I can assure the noble Lord that the position regarding Welsh ports, which he has raised before—I am grateful to him for that—is certainly something the Government are well aware of, and it is under consideration.

UK-EU Negotiations

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Thursday 18th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

I did not hear the comments to which the noble Lord refers—that is not because I am under some ban on listening to the “Today” programme; I gave up listening to that when I worked in No. 10 many years ago—but I agree with him that Northern Ireland business is hugely important. It is made up of many small businesses, which makes the task of keeping them informed and supporting them particularly germane. I assure him that we will step up and sustain a process of engagement there. I am sorry that the gentleman concerned felt that it had not started enough. He is not necessarily wrong now, but we will hope to prove him wrong in the weeks and months ahead. I understand the important point that the noble Lord makes.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

I hope that the Government succeed in coming rapidly to some conclusion, because planning for every eventuality is something that Governments can do but business, such as the aerospace industry and the motor industry in Wales and the Welsh agricultural sector in particular, cannot plan unless it has the information. Whereas getting some reasonable deal is certainly what all businesses want, leaving without one would be a total disaster. Will the Minister convey to the Prime Minister the wish of the Welsh Government and the First Minister of Wales that a meeting take place to clarify these urgent matters as soon as possible?

[Lord True]

My Lords, we regard the relationship with the devolved Administrations as being of great importance and we have appreciated close contact with them in the work going on. We have different views on the way forward, although, as the noble Lord will know, the Welsh people voted to leave the European Union. We are grateful for thoughtful and considered contributions from the Welsh Government and Welsh business. There have been many opportunities to discuss arrangements, both in public and in private, but I assure the noble Lord that the interests of Welsh business and particular sectors of it continue to be well understood and well addressed and are of central concern to the Government.

Constitution, Democracy and Rights Commission

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Tuesday 16th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I wish to press the Minister further on the relationship between the devolved Administrations and Westminster. If the terms of reference include looking at this interrelationship, as they most certainly should, can he guarantee, or at least press the Government to ensure, that voices from Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast are on both sides of the argument —with regard to the nationalist community in the three countries—as a central part of the commission to ensure that it has credibility in those three nations?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I regret that I cannot add anything to my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney. I am not in a position to advise the House at this stage on the composition and focus of the commission. Of course, I take note of what the noble Lord says.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord True

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

I was honouring an engagement. It was not a social engagement: I was teaching medieval Greek culture on a university course in Italy, which I hope disqualifies me from being either a Little Englander or stupid, as some Brexit people have been described. I am not making a Second Reading speech but I was going to say that I rather thought that we were hearing a Second Reading debate again. Like everybody else, I read the debate. Looking at the groupings list for today, every one of the lead amendments seeks either to reverse Brexit or to delay its implementation. They are not about implementation or about progressing the matter but about obfuscation and delaying matters. I believe that there is a very important question that we need to address on the customs union.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords—

[Lord True]

If I may, I will continue. The noble Lord has asked me not to talk too much. Let us have a debate on the customs union—a specific debate, not on a wide-ranging group. Let us hear the arguments. Maybe we will hear what the Labour Party’s policy is. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, says that it is one thing and other people say it is another. We will then have a short debate, or maybe a long debate, and we will take a decision on the matter. That is the way to proceed. However, in a debate that has already lasted an hour and three-quarters, we have heard about ID cards, chickens, Ireland, animals and all sorts of things, and we are not even going to have a vote on the matter. We have nine other groups to go through. We are repeating the Second Reading but it is not me who is doing that; it is many of your Lordships.

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who made an interesting and impressive speech raising important points, should decide on Report which of those elements he wishes to put to a vote and we will then decide. For now, we ought to get on. This Bill has gone through the elected Chamber and it comes to us from there. That elected Chamber is entirely satisfied with it.