Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

I want to join briefly with colleagues who have raised these points. Over many years I have often heard the argument made that matters of substance are passed through Parliament by order—by secondary legislation and so on. Here we have the reverse position, where there are matters that should surely be set out in orders. Ministers should be empowered to introduce orders to deal with a variety of circumstances that certainly do not warrant taking up the face of the Bill. If that were the case, there would be flexibility within the orders to deal with other cases which possibly have not been thought of. Putting this in the Bill in this way is surely a nonsense.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, for drawing my attention to these new sections, in particular new Sections 116G and 116H. I spend around 140 days of the year here, about 60 days in my family home in Scotland and the rest of the time in Wales. On these formulae, I am not liable to pay income tax in Wales, certainly not in Scotland, and possibly not in England, if we have similar provisions. Thank you very much. Devolve away.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

I am grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. On the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, on Cardiff Airport, of course we need intervention—that is the whole point of government. If we just leave it to free market forces, those areas that have difficulties with the economy will get worse and worse. I am amazed that the Government look at devolution and powers of the Assembly only in terms of answerability and do not see the central need to have intervention in the economy to build it up. In Wales, the GDP per head is 25% below the UK average, so something is going wrong. If London is not capable of sorting that out, and Westminster is not capable of sorting it out, we have to do the job ourselves. But we need the tools to do that job and to intervene, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said. Some tools may be more appropriate than others, but in the case of Cardiff Airport, when all the effort that is being made to rebuild it at the moment is in question, I find it staggering that they want just to turn it down on that basis.

On the other amendments and the reasons given against them, with regard to petrol charges we already have a massive differential. We do not see people queuing from north Wales to Chester to find cheaper fuel because there is a cost involved in travelling. The need to get fair play in rural areas should be recognised by the Government. Goodness only knows that life is difficult enough as it is without the very high petrol taxes that we have.

On the natural resources of Wales, we hear so much about fracking coming along, and we know it is a matter of considerable concern. That is a new source of energy, and it may be something that comes into the purview of government in those terms. We need those powers to be there.

On corporation tax, I again underline that there is unanimity within the Assembly to have those powers, if they are going to Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the Government in fairness should allow it for Wales, which is in competition for inward investment against the Irish Republic. The Irish Republic has this advantage, so why do we not? We need that in order to rebuild our economy. It is something that the First Minister of Wales has very reasonably asked for and I hope that the Opposition Front Bench will support the First Minister in those representations.

I was heartened by the comments made by the Minister that there are provisions for other taxes to be devolved by order. We shall have to look to the order-making system to try to ensure that we have the tools necessary to do the job.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Does the noble Lord not agree that, if the Welsh Labour Government are not prepared to use the tools, there is no point in having these powers?

[Lord Wigley]

That is true of all the powers, and we have to look to the Assembly to take a responsible attitude. Obviously there are questions to consider—cross-border questions and all the rest—and the Assembly needs to make these powers work, so it is not going to do stupid things. It will take up the powers and use them in a way that moves our economy forward. I am quite happy to trust that people who give priority to the needs of Wales will do this, from whichever party they come. All I want them to have is the tools to do the job. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, on this. Clearly the sons of Denbighshire had it right in that the forgotten ironmaster, possibly Wilkinson, was responsible for “Senedd”. Certainly, I used the phrase and Lord Hooson used the phrase. It is the appropriate title for a Welsh Assembly/Parliament—but I prefer to call it the Senedd.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, many of us campaigned for a Parliament for Wales for many years and in that context, obviously, the ambitions for a legislative body that has full competence, including tax raising and tax varying, fits with the concept of a Parliament.

The one point that I would make—and undoubtedly the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has thought about it—is that the building in Cardiff is now known as a Senedd, which makes it even more complex, with the differential between the Senedd building and the Cynulliad Cenedlaethol or National Assembly that is within it. We are of course aware that in France the National Assembly is the primary body. Therefore, my feeling is that whereas I have total sympathy with what my noble friend is aiming at, perhaps this, like so many other issues, is one that in the first place the National Assembly itself and its Members should decide on.

Changes have been made, as has been referred to earlier today, with regard to moving from the First Secretary to the First Minister and from secretaries to Ministers; something that was picked up by custom and practice in the first place and then became accepted. I hope that if there is to be a move in this direction it is by the initiative of the Members of the National Assembly itself. What is most important—I am sure that the noble Lord would agree—is the powers and functions that that body has to serve the people of Wales.

Wales: Silk Report

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I join noble Lords in mourning the loss of the late Wyn, Lord Roberts, of whom I had an earlier opportunity to speak in the Chamber. I very much thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for facilitating this short debate and also pay tribute to his work on the Silk commission and that of other commissioners, including Plaid Cymru’s Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym and, particularly, Paul Silk himself.

I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, would agree that among the most remarkable aspects of the Silk commission was that, first, unlike Scotland, it was drawn up with terms of reference to which all four parties in Wales signed up and, secondly, its first report secured the support of all commission members. I am sure that the noble Lord would confirm that such agreement was achieved by some give and take and that the report was presented as a balanced package, not one to be cherry-picked. I regret very much that the Government, driven as they are by the Scottish agenda, could not accept the package in its entirety.

I regret that for two substantive reasons. First, by insisting on a lock-step on income tax, the Government denied the Assembly the significant degree of policy flexibility it might have otherwise enjoyed, and with it the possibility of creating a far-reaching investment programme that could stimulate the Welsh economy. Goodness knows that we need that. Business rate flexibility and stamp duty land tax are certainly worth having but are not in themselves enough. Secondly, by acting in this way, the UK Government have let the Welsh Prime Minister off the hook. Carwyn Jones has waxed eloquent this week on how the Tories and their Lib Dem backers squandered the opportunity provided by Silk. It has been enough of an excuse for Mr Jones to step away from a referendum, for what is the point of having a referendum on income tax powers that are unusable?

Had the Silk report been adopted in its entirety, with all the parties represented on the commission on board, it would have been impossible for Labour or any other party to wriggle out of having a referendum. A yes vote could have been secured again, as happened in the 2011 referendum when all four parties were united. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, in that context. That yes vote would have started making Wales’s Government truly answerable to the people of Wales in having to justify their expenditure and stewardship of Welsh taxpayers’ money. I cannot understand the Government taking this course of action which at one stroke negates everything they purport to advocate in terms of democratic answerability in Wales. Has Alex Salmond’s shadow really got them on the run to that extent?

I also respectfully disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and do not join him in talking Wales down in terms of the National Health Service. Goodness knows that there are people working hard enough and with great commitment in the health service in Wales, and they deserve our thanks. Of course, some bad decisions have been made by the Welsh Government, as by the Westminster Government. The noble Lord quoted a highly unfortunate situation in the NHS in Wales this week. One of the worst blind alleys that the Assembly pursued with regard to the health service was the creation of 22 local health boards, but I suspect that the noble Lord’s party supported it in doing that. The truth is that Barnett underfunding deprived the Assembly of some £5 billion since its establishment, and health and education in Wales have been underfunded as a result.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I am sorry to take up the noble Lord’s time, but is that not the point? As soon as the NHS and education are under attack, what do they blame? It is the Barnett formula for failing to provide funds. We need accountability in this.

[Lord Wigley]

Of course we need accountability. That is why we do not need the lock-step, so that we get the tax linked in. I agree with the noble Lord on that. The fact is that if there was adequate funding, we would not have had some of the cutbacks that have been necessary in the health service in Wales.

The questions I wish to put to the Minister are these. First, could an income tax-sharing model be adopted before reform of the Barnett formula? Secondly, will the borrowing powers set out in the draft Bill include the old WDA borrowing powers, or is that a separate amount? Thirdly, is the M4 relief road dependent on getting these borrowing powers? Fourthly, how much of the £500 million borrowing limit will be available before a referendum? Fifthly, does the revenue stream from the minor taxes—the land tax and the aggregate levy—constitute enough to support the £500 million borrowing capacity? Lastly, the draft measure says that a yes vote in a referendum would allow the Secretary of State to raise the borrowing limit, but raise it by how much?

If I may put one key question to the Labour Front Bench, as Carwyn Jones has said that he will not hold a referendum until the Barnett formula has been replaced or radically amended, will the Labour Party give a copper-bottomed commitment that if it forms the next Government at Westminster after the 2015 election, it will reform or scrap Barnett as a matter of urgency?

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I also welcome the Government’s shift on this matter. I am sure it is one that will give the noble Lord, Lord McNally, considerable satisfaction, given the family dimension and his understanding of this condition. It will, I hope, be of considerable benefit to many thousands of sufferers and their families. I join in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I am aware of his campaigning ability from many years in another place. We campaigned sometimes together and sometimes on opposite sides. When one was on the opposite side, my goodness, one knew one had a contender to deal with. The diligence that he and other colleagues across parties have applied to this issue will be of considerable satisfaction to the groups of campaigners who represent sufferers and their families.

I want to raise a couple of points with the Minister. I note with interest that the definition of diffuse mesothelioma used here is the one that was incorporated in the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979. Another dimension of what he mentioned a moment ago is the fact that there are still people who cannot trace their employers or pinpoint which employer was responsible at the time at which the disease may have developed. That is the case for a number of diseases. The 1979 Act, as noble Lords will remember, arose largely from the position of slate quarriers, but many other workers were affected in the cotton and pottery industries and some in the steel industry.

I am not going to reopen the debate that we lost the other night. We lost that one, and so be it, but there will be some cases in which there is suffering that is not covered by any other provision. When the review is undertaken, I hope that some consideration can be given to whether there are other cases of industrial workers who have suffered loss of health, and in many cases loss of life, and do not have an avenue through which to get compensation. If they do get compensation, they should not have that compensation unreasonably eroded. I hope that can be taken on board by the DWP. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, the Minister in the DWP who may be handling this, also has a good understanding of the suffering that arises from these conditions, so hopefully we can make progress.

Finally, this may be a lesson for us in this House to try and try again. We could have abandoned this the other night without insisting on the amendment that we put through to the other place. We did not and that is what enabled progress to be made on this occasion. There may be other instances when we need to be equally tenacious and determined in order to make sure that the other place gives adequate attention to a subject and that progress such as this can be made.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on all the very hard work that he has put into this matter. I also pay tribute to the work of the Greater Manchester Asbestos Victims Support Group, in particular to Tony Whitston, who has lobbied so hard on behalf of victims; and there are other support groups, such as the Merseyside support group, which have lobbied just as hard.

I argued on Monday that success fees ought not to be claimed by solicitors in this type of case. I was pleased to hear the Minister in another place, Mr Djanogly, say yesterday:

“this is not an issue of causation. I heard Lord Thomas speak in the other place yesterday, and I very much agree with what he had to say, which was essentially that in cases in which causation is not an issue, there is—in many respects—no reason why solicitors should have a success fee for that type of work”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/4/12; col. 831.]

I was strongly supported on Monday by my noble friend Lord Faulks, and I am grateful to him for the concern that he has shown on this issue. An objection was made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, that it was impossible to guarantee that solicitors would not charge a success fee against their clients’ damages.

I interjected that if public opinion saw it as an abuse, no doubt the Lord Chancellor would step in to deal with it by way of regulation. There is another way in which this issue could be approached. I suggest to Mr Whitston, his excellent organisation and other similar support groups that he should draw up a list of solicitors who have indicated to him that they would not charge a success fee when, ultimately, the new regime for CFAs is introduced for mesothelioma sufferers. The support group could receive applications from solicitors to be put on an approved list and satisfy itself that firms that are accessible to victims in those industrial parts of the country where the disease is most prevalent—shall we say Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol and, of course, the industrial areas of north and south Wales?—are geared up and competent in this area of work. Sufferers from mesothelioma turn to the support groups, and if they had a list of solicitors who had undertaken not to charge success fees against the damages they receive and who they are satisfied are competent, that would be a great way forward.

[Lord Wigley]

I follow the point that the noble Lord made the other night; I well understand it and have some sympathy with it. Clearly, if the sort of provision he is suggesting were to be made, it would be very helpful. Does he feel that it should be limited to mesothelioma, because there are many other cases of compensation in which it is equally unreasonable that there should be a deduction of up to 25 per cent from the compensation?

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The noble Lord will recall that on Report, I referred not only to cases of mesothelioma that Mr Tony Whitston drew to our attention from the Brymbo steelworks in Wrexham but to cases of pneumoconiosis that I have known. He is a slate quarry person; I come from a colliery area and I know of the long-term suffering of those victims. With mesothelioma, that could be done now and could be extended to other diseases in due course.

The support groups would be uniquely placed to monitor the service that such firms gave to mesothelioma sufferers, who could report back on their experiences to both the support groups and their successors. That is the answer to those who say that solicitors will not do this work at all unless they are cosseted by success fees. It spreads the work around the country to areas that are particularly concerned with this disease, where experience could be built up by firms of solicitors. It may discourage any idea of focusing litigation of this type in the City of London branch offices of firms that then claim to be paid at City of London rates. Anecdotal evidence suggests that that happens in some CFA cases.

As my noble friend Lord Faulks said on Monday, there are lawyers who are dedicated to achieving the best result for their clients and not so much for their fees. I have no doubt that they would flock to be placed on an approved list and forbear charging a success fee at all. I hope that such an approach will appeal to the Minister, the Lord Chancellor and the Ministry of Justice.