Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, it is with pleasure that I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. There are three reasons why I do so. First, the Welsh Assembly has won its right to a new and better model of government, and its right to be granted, like Scotland, all the powers not reserved to Westminster.

Secondly, with experience, it is now indefensible, within a small kingdom, to have different forms of government —for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Hence my firm belief, which I have advocated for some time, in the need, particularly post the Scottish referendum, to appoint a constitutional convention, with greater authority than the Kilbrandon royal commission because it would have party leaders on it, to give it maximum authority. Royal commissions have fallen out of favour; Kilbrandon itself was inconclusive. The thrust was there for devolving government, but the options were many.

Thirdly, with the symmetry of equality of powers for the three Governments, we could then consider the part that England would play in a federal state. I explored the proposals of the MacKay commission in my National Library Archive lecture last November, and surmised then that there would be a great deal of agonising before any agreement was reached. I trust that my party will take a statesmanlike view and a broader perspective than short-term number-crunching, and will make the good governance of the whole of the United Kingdom paramount.

The arguments against my noble friend’s amendment, which I have learnt from the considerable time that I spend in Spain, my favourite European country, amount to “mañana”—or, to paraphrase St Augustine, “Oh Lord, make me good—but not yet”. However, I am confident that the ever efficient Whitehall machine has already done a great deal of the spadework. Indeed, it had done that as far back as the devolution Bill of 1976, of which I was the architect—and, I suspect, also did it as part of the work on the schedule of powers in the most recent Act, to which my noble friend referred. Those powers were not delineated lightly. So, from my experience of legislating, my noble friend’s proposal of six months seems a perfectly reasonable time within which to bring forward proposals.

At Second Reading, we heard some quite ill informed criticism of the present arrangements. As the architect of Harold Wilson’s Bill, I plead guilty, together with the other members of the Government I was proud to serve. I was warned then that this was a novel and untried proposal, and that reserved powers would be much simpler. Let me enumerate briefly the realpolitik facts—they can be proven historically—about why the decision was taken on granting powers as opposed to reserving powers.

First, we were spoilt for choice by the many proposals of the Kilbrandon commission, which deserve rereading. Secondly, the first draft of the Queen’s Speech in 1974 did not include any devolution proposals. I was warned in the first few days of the new Government to send an amendment to No. 10 to include devolution, and I did so—as it happened, from my sick bed. The reason for the omission was that the Cabinet Office drafters thought that a reforming Labour Government would have other, more general, priorities in the first year of government.

Thirdly, my great fear was that there would be a Bill for Scotland but not for Wales—mañana again. Wales might come at the tail end of a Parliament. My mission was to hang on to the coat tails of Scotland and, if necessary, compromise my ambitions to ensure that there would be contemporary Bills in the early years of the Labour Government.

Fourthly, the Labour Party was split, and many of my colleagues lacked appetite for any kind of devolution.

Fifthly, the Cabinet was split. The Prime Minister was the main protagonist and appointed his two deputies in turn, Ted Short and Michael Foot—such was the importance of the committee—to chair the Cabinet committee dealing with the day-to-day work of drafting the Bill. The difficulties, fears and doubts of all Whitehall departments were paraded in the twice-a-week meetings of that committee.

Eventually, one of the greatest and most intellectual civil servants, Sir Michael Quinlan, a distinguished future Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Defence, was appointed to head the Whitehall machine. I tend to gauge the prospects of success of a particular policy by the quality of the civil servants appointed to run it. I knew with the appointment of Sir Michael—he was Mr Quinlan then—that we would get the proposals over the hurdle of the Cabinet legislative committee.

If anyone wants intellectual analysis of our political difficulties, I invite him to read or reread the admirable diaries of the period written by my noble friend Lord Donoughue, who had a ringside seat at many of the all-day meetings in Chequers and elsewhere. They are historical proof of the difficulties resulting from the different views of the Cabinet. The opposition changed from meeting to meeting: Roy Jenkins, Denis Healey, Elwyn Jones and so on—all big beasts. At one time, my noble friend says, they were quarrelling like monkeys at Chequers. It was only the steadfastness of the Prime Minister that got us through, and I am eternally grateful to him.

The intellectual defence of our proposals, which we now find inadequate, was that we proposed what we thought we might get away with in the party, in the House of Commons and in Wales. That was the realpolitik. In the event, we were proved wrong because of, as Mr Macmillan once said, “Events, dear boy, events”. Now is the opportunity to right the wrong. I, for one, marvel, now that everyone—well, almost everyone—is a devolutionist, how far we have moved in the 55 years of my parliamentary life.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, it is a delight to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, and to learn some aspects of this question that I had not been aware of before. I am very glad that he has added his considerable expertise and weight to support the amendment. I am delighted to support the words of my noble friend Lord Elystan-Morgan and I am grateful to him for putting this amendment forward. I pay tribute to him for his consistent advocacy for the maximum self-determination for Wales within the framework that we are discussing.

I moved a very similar amendment to this in Committee, supported by my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas. I do not intend to repeat the arguments that I put forward then, but I would like to highlight two points. First, the basis for having a reserved powers model is that it would be similar to that in Scotland and Northern Ireland, so it at least has arguments of symmetry in its favour as well as the practical arguments that have already been outlined. Secondly, the reserve powers model was unanimously recommended by the Silk commission, which included people from all four parties in Wales. There were some discussions before coming to that conclusion, and clearly it is something that should carry weight.

The principle of that amendment in Committee was supported by noble Lords on all Benches. It was supported by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell—I was delighted at that time to hear his words—and by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford, Lord Rowlands, Lord Richard and Lord Anderson, as well as my noble friends Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Elis-Thomas.

In her response to that amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said:

“I am delighted that there is now a broad consensus that moving to a reserved powers model of devolution is desirable”.

She assured the Committee that the Wales Office was,

“working proactively on how we go forward to a new reserved powers model … we must … ensure that sufficient work is done on the reserved powers model so that there is cross-party agreement”.—[Official Report, 13/10/14; col. 26.]

She was then challenged by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, as to why the reserved powers model,

“cannot be accepted in principle in the Bill, with all the details to be worked out in due course”.

In reply, the noble Baroness said that she would,

“take it away and think about it”.—[Official Report, 13/10/14; col.28.]

She invited me to withdraw my amendment, saying that events were moving on very rapidly. It was on that basis that I withdrew the amendment that I had put forward.

Well, we are now at Report stage. I warmly invite the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, now to indicate that the Wales Office has indeed worked proactively on this matter and can now accept the amendment and tell the House of the anticipated timescale to get the constitutional change put into effect.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, for the unfailing courtesy in the discussion that we had on my amendment. When I moved a similar amendment in Committee, with the support of a number of my noble friends and no one dissenting, I said that I hoped that I and all of us concerned with the status of the use of the Welsh language had nothing to worry about. Now the Government have tabled Amendment 44, which includes such provision in new paragraph 1A(1)(b), and I welcome that as a very important step indeed.

Given the history of the success in ensuring equal validity for the language over the years, I presume the failure to include in the Bill a declaratory statement of the kind now in the Government’s amendment was an unintended omission. I was particularly encouraged by the considered statement of the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, in his reply to the previous debate, where he stated that,

“the Government believe that the Welsh Language Act 1993 includes an obligation to treat Welsh and English on an equal basis and that there is a strong and compelling case for translation costs to be excluded”—

that is, excluded from the ceiling. He added, with regard to the references that had been made to the history of the language, that,

“the Government will consider how this exclusion would operate and will want to return to this important issue on Report”. —[Official Report, 16/12/13; col. 1093.]

That is what they have done, and I welcome that. Hence my noble friend and I tabled the original amendment, and I am grateful for the support of all who spoke in Committee.

The Minister said that there is “no legal obligation” to translate election material from English to Welsh and vice versa, and that is absolutely right. In reality, however, given the sea change in the use of the Welsh language in Wales, in some parts in practice it would not be possible to make any electoral headway without the use of both languages. All parties in Wales recognise this and implement the public expectation of the use of both languages. Indeed, in my time as a constituency Member of Parliament, this is what happened and many people made representations to me in both languages.

The Welsh Language Commissioner, Meri Huws, was concerned about this lacuna in the Bill and sought my support. The Bill defines “controlled expenditure” to include,

“the production … of material which is made available to the public at large”.

Since the cost of translation of electoral material falls within that definition, the commissioner was concerned that the reduced expenditure would adversely affect the provision of bilingual election material in Wales. Non-political organisations might well choose not to use bilingual election material. That was the issue. The mischief which concerned the Welsh Language Commissioner was the possible inhibition of third parties from issuing bilingual material.

I would argue that the Government have sought to meet our need. You cannot translate anything unless you have an original document. Material produced for the public at large by definition includes the production cost. The bilingual production of the document for translation is a preliminary step towards its publication, so it is totally unreasonable to limit the exception to, for example, the actual payment to the translator, which could be quite small. Following my conversation with the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, this morning, I hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who I understand will reply, will give me the assurance I seek that “production” is basically a part of the process leading to the translation. Any other interpretation would put my noble friends, and indeed the Government, in an impossible situation.

Let me describe the situation where I was wrong and the expenditure was confined strictly to the actual costs of, for example, paying the translator. Whereas in England the NSPCC may issue material only in one language, the NSPCC in Wales would be obliged to prepare and translate a similar document in both languages. If the whole costs could not be excluded from the expenditure ceiling, that would certainly inhibit it from doing what it would like to do. If I am wrong—perhaps those advising the Minister will want to consider the reply, which I am sure will be helpful—the mischief of discouraging people from producing bilingual pamphlets and material would still be there.

I hope very much that I can have the assurance that I want. I refer again to what the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, said in Committee, that the Government want to fulfil their obligations,

“to treat Welsh and English on an equal basis”.—[Official Report, 16/12/13; col. 1093.]

I hope and believe that the legislation should leave this House on as perfect a basis as possible.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Before the noble and learned Lord sits down, can he emphasise that the cost of production includes additional paper and printing as well as the cost of translation? That is the point where his amendment, to which my name is attached, has merit over and above the Government’s amendment. There needs to be clarification that the cost of production includes the extra costs related to having the production in two languages.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

Given that the definition I have quoted refers to “production of material”, I assume that that material is included in the definition. You cannot usually translate anything unless you have something on paper to look at, which enables you to translate it. Therefore, this is an initial step in production. I emphasise, for the third time, that the definition refers to,

“the production … of material which is made available to the public”.