Energy: Welsh Government

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 24th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Earl makes an interesting point, and I am of course aware of the requirements of the heritage steam sector. We would be happy to take it up with the Welsh Government.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Does the Minister accept that over recent years, there has been immense frustration in Wales as projects involving tidal lagoons, floating offshore wind—as highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, a moment ago—and inland hydro pump storage schemes have failed to progress, partly because of the split of responsibility between Westminster and Senedd Cymru? If the Government cannot get their act together, will they please devolve full responsibility to the Welsh Government, with the cash resources needed to drive forward these much-needed projects?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am sorry that the noble Lord takes that attitude, because all projects across the UK are evaluated on the same basis. Of course, it is not possible to take forward every project, but the assertion that projects in Wales are somehow discriminated against is just not true. I could give him many alternative examples of projects in Wales—from nuclear, to hydrogen storage, to hydrogen allocation rounds, and CCUS projects—that are going forward.

Advanced Modular Reactors: Criticality Tests

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 19th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question and her positive advocacy of Wales and the Welsh nuclear programmes. I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, was going to ask me something similar —he may well still do so. The Government selected HTGRs for research and development purposes in the AMR R&D programme following analysis by the Nuclear Innovation and Research Office of the responses to a call for evidence. This analysis suggested that HTGRs are the most promising AMR technology for decarbonisation due to their ability to generate high-temperature heat and their high technology readiness levels.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, and the plea made by the noble Viscount in introducing this Question. I reiterate my support for Trawsfynydd and Wylfa and welcome the steps being taken there. Over the past four years Ministers have repeatedly stressed the role that the Government see for nuclear energy in the challenges of climate change, yet here we are again failing to put resources where they matter, particularly for enhanced safety and disposing of nuclear waste. Will the Government either come clean and admit that they are not fully committed to this next generation of nuclear technology or commit the necessary money to make this happen?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am delighted to see the support from across the House for the contribution that Wales makes to our nuclear technologies, but I am afraid I cannot agree with the noble Lord. We are putting in substantial sums of money: £385 million into the advanced nuclear fund, £210 million to support the development of Rolls-Royce SMR design and up to £170 million for an AMR research, development and demonstration programme across three phases. I could go on with the levels of support; we are supporting most of these technologies.

Electricity Network Connection Action Plan

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 22nd November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right: the FSO role is absolutely key, and we are progressing work on that as quickly as possible. It is really important to get it up and running, and relieve the responsibility from the national grid, which I think has had a number of conflicts of interest in this space.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that there is a pressing need for new interconnector links down the west coast of Wales to facilitate potential hydroelectric schemes? Is he aware of the uncertainty concerning the help to minimise the physical impact on houses nearby and on substations? Who will fund these payments, and who will determine the planning issues? Are the Government working in close co-operation with the Welsh Government to make sure that there is clarity on this issue and that they can move forward quickly?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Indeed, we are working with both the Scottish and Welsh Governments. There is tremendous public support for offshore wind; it has been our biggest expansion mechanism. But of course it requires a lot of onshore infrastructure as well, which is unpopular in the communities affected. There is a well-established planning process, looking at all these impacts, and we will continue to work with the devolved Administrations.

Climate Change: Net Zero Strategy

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 3rd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The sixth carbon budget goes through to 2038. We have set out policies to meet— I think—about 97% of the targets under that and we have a number of other policies that are so far unquantified. In essence, the noble Lord is right, of course. As we make faster progress—and we are making very swift progress—the targets become more difficult to meet: but I am confident that we can do so.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, in order to get the maximum benefit at the right time from wind power and other power supplies that come at inappropriate times, there is a real case for additional pumped-storage capacity? Will he do what he can to speed up the establishment of a clear financial base? At present that is holding back some very valuable projects.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point. As we have more and more intermittent renewables coming on to the grid, we will need to balance that out with increased storage capacity, which may be pumped storage: of course, there is an excellent example in Wales in the Dinorwig plant, but there are examples in Scotland as well. As well as storage mechanisms such as pumped storage and battery storage, the potential of long-term hydrogen storage in salt caverns is extremely exciting.

Cleaner Energy Technologies

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

If there is one thing many parts of the UK are not short of, it is water. The noble Baroness’s point is partly valid in that we need substantial quantities of water for producing electrolytic hydrogen, which is fundamentally electricity and water, so that is something we need to bear in mind in terms of location.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, as the Minister fully appreciates, we do not necessarily get the energy at the right time from some of the alternative sources and that brings into play the importance of pumped-storage schemes. Is he aware of concern in the industry that the regulations the Government are abiding by are holding back the development of pumped storage and will he please have a look at this in association with those in his department?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord is of course right in that renewables are good, available and cheap but they are intermittent so we need technology such as nuclear, which has already been referred to, and pumped storage, of which there are excellent examples in Wales. We will certainly look at removing any future barriers to the deployment of further pumped storage.

Hospitality Industry

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 24th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That depends on what the noble Earl defines as an energy company. Many of the energy retailers are making very little money—in fact, they are losing money. Nevertheless, the noble Earl makes an important point. We want to make sure that there is no price gouging going on. We are in regular contact with Ofgem officials, and I have met with them. One of my ministerial colleagues has met with the energy supply companies to make sure that they are also doing all they can to support these vulnerable businesses.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister appreciate that one of the significant problems facing the hospitality industry has been the shortage of labour, a direct result of the Brexit of which he was such an enthusiastic supporter? What will the Government do to enable the hospitality industry to get suitable labour for the next season?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not sure that I would equate the two issues, but I am happy to debate this with the noble Lord some other time. There are some labour shortages in the hospitality sector, as there are in others. We want to get the message across that industry needs to invest in workers from this country, rather than relying just on immigration all the time.

Business: Greenwashing

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 10th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my registered interest. Does the Minister accept that there is real pressure on productive agricultural land, particularly in Wales and Scotland, from the big businesses buying up such land and taking it out of production, so adding to food cost inflation? Does he accept that perpetual increased afforestation encroaching on productive land is not an acceptable answer, and that it needs land use that sustains food production in an environmentally acceptable manner?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That is a fascinating question, although I am not sure that what it has to do with the subject under discussion. However, it is a very real issue and certainly something that we need to keep under close examination, because we do not want productive land taken out of use.

Energy Security

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 5th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, for their questions. I will start with nuclear, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and Labour for their support for it. The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and the Liberal Democrats are absolutely wrong on this. The idea that we can satisfy all of our baseload capacity from a little bit of pumped hydro storage, a few batteries and a bit of hydrogen is nonsensical, I am afraid. If the Liberal Democrats are serious about ever being in government, they need to seriously address these issues of how to provide long-term energy security. I am afraid that, at the moment, nuclear is the only carbon-free option that will do so at scale. The option that the noble Baroness talks about produces puny amounts of power.

In the British Energy Security Strategy, we provided a clear, long-term plan to accelerate our energy transition towards net zero and away from fossil fuel prices set by global markets beyond our control, and we are making serious progress towards that. We have more offshore wind than the rest of Europe put together; we have the second-largest offshore wind sector in the world, and the contracts for difference scheme has made a massive difference. I get that the Opposition think we should go even further and even faster, and we are expanding our ambition, but the turbines are being rolled out at a rate of many hundreds a year, and there are a number of supply chain limits. I assure the noble Lord that we will continue to roll them out because, at the moment, it is the cheapest form of generation—albeit intermittent, and we therefore need to provide back-up power for it.

That is why the investment in nuclear was announced. We are confirming the first state backing for a nuclear project in over 30 years, with a £679 million investment to support the UK on our journey to greater energy freedom. We are taking a 50% stake in the project’s development, with EDF. Sizewell C is set to generate reliable and clean homegrown electricity for 6 million UK homes, but it will of course also deliver thousands of high-value jobs in East Anglia and nationwide. We are also working hard to set up Great British Nuclear with support from the industry and our expert adviser, Simon Bowen. Great British Nuclear will aim to develop a resilient pipeline of new-build projects, supporting them through every stage of development. There are a number of exciting developments, such as small modular reactors, which will come on stream in a few years’ time.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Hear, hear.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am pleased to hear that Welsh support.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, both mentioned the importance of energy efficiency and public communication, and I completely agree with them. The noble Baroness said that there was nothing in the Statement on energy efficiency, but I am afraid that she is wrong. We of course will not fix our energy future by focusing on supply alone; we have to sort out our own homes and buildings. That is why we set out our ambition, backed by an energy efficiency task force, to reduce our final energy consumption from buildings and industry by 15% by 2030.

We have already come a long way, with £6.6 billion provided in this Parliament, but we recognise the scale and urgency of our challenge. In this year’s Autumn Statement, the Chancellor announced an additional £6 billion to be spent between 2025 and 2028. In addition, we announced the start of a consultation on the £1 billion ECO Plus scheme, which will run between spring 2023 and March 2026 and will aim to save consumers around £310 a year on their heating bills by installing insulation in hundreds of thousands of homes across the country. As I said, I would be interested to see any consultation responses for that.

Having all this support in place is all very well, but people need to know where to find it. That is why we are providing about £18 million to expand our public awareness campaign to help households to do what they can to reduce their usage and bills, protecting vulnerable people over this winter and beyond. Again, I welcome the support for restarting the energy security Bill, and I look forward to our further debates on it in this House. It will be the most significant piece of primary energy legislation since 2013, and it will liberate private investment in clean technologies and encourage competition in the sector, protecting consumers and reforming the UK’s energy system to ensure that it is resilient, efficient and safe.

Both noble Lords also mentioned the subject of onshore wind. We know that onshore wind is a mature, efficient and cheap technology and that we will need more of it. We are clear that, to achieve this, we will require a sustained increased in locally supported offshore wind through to 2030. However, we understand the intensity of feeling that some people have about the impact of wind turbines in more densely populated parts of England, and we want to maintain the ability of local communities to input into those proposals. Noble Lords will be aware that various amendments have been tabled to the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill addressing onshore wind in England. We are currently giving consideration to this issue and will respond in due course.

On the issue of solar, the Government recognise that there is a need to preserve our most productive arable farmland. It is important that the Government can strike the right balance between these considerations and securing a clean, green energy system for the future; that is why the planning system is designed to take account of those issues.

In response to other issues mentioned, I am aware of the exciting proposal for the interconnector linking us with Morocco. It is an awfully long way, and the electrical engineer in me thinks of the length of that cable and the losses that will result from that, but it will be great if we can get that to fruition as it is an extremely exciting project.

The noble Baroness referred to subsidies for fossil fuels. I reiterate once again that the UK does not subsidise fossil fuels; no matter how many times she makes this point, I will give her the same answer. She and the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, referred to billions of pounds unclaimed from the fossil fuel industry. The Chancellor announced the extension of the energy profits levy, and there were lots of wild squeals from many of those companies that the Treasury has gone too far with this tax because investment is drying up. I am sure that the Chancellor will want to keep that under review.

I think I have answered most of the other questions.

Newport Wafer Fab

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not sure that I said that, but I will certainly look back through the record. This has been going on for a long period. The Secretary of State has taken into account all the relevant factors, as he is obliged to do under the legislation. The noble Lord is right; we debated it extensively, but this decision has been taken purely on the grounds of national security. That is what the Secretary of State is required to do. That is what he has done, taking all the relevant factors into consideration, and he has made a final order in this case.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, which is the greater security threat: that the technology at Newport goes into Chinese hands or that we lose the overall capacity to be able to manufacture in this sector?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord will know that I cannot go into specific details of this case, but I am delighted to say that we have an extensive range of companies in the UK manufacturing and producing in this area. South Wales is one of the notable success stories with the catapult acceleration plans that we have there.

Government Departments: Communication with Industry and Commerce

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 14th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord on the importance of our world-class business and professional services in the City of London. Perhaps he can have a word with his noble friend about the importance of these industries to the country. Of course, we will continue to liaise with all City firms; we will not always agree on everything, because appropriate regulation is important, but we will continue to liaise with them.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, in view of some of the speculation that took place soon after the new Government came in about their commitment to nuclear power, will the Minister confirm that they are committed to it, particularly to the SMR programme?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am happy to give the noble Lord the commitment he seeks. Nuclear power will be an important component of our energy infrastructure and it is also important that we continue to invest in the SMR programme.

Energy Supplies

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I know that my noble friend has been a long-standing supporter of fracking. There are a lot of steps to go through. There could be potential for large amounts of shale gas. We do not yet know. Local planning will still need to happen, the licences will need to be issued, the Secretary of State will want to be reassured that it is still safe in operation et cetera, but it is certainly a potential that we are looking at.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister is aware that the Government of Wales have banned fracking, not just on the question of environmental impact in the conventional sense but because of the uncertainty of the underground workings in many of the coalfields and other mineral areas of Wales. In those circumstances, in the context of the possibility of fracking in west Cheshire and the Wirral, and the uncertainty about many of the underground tunnels in the industrial area of Flintshire, can he ensure that there is close co-operation and discussion with the Government of Wales before any consent is given on the eastern side of the border?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Welsh Government are of course responsible for policies, planning et cetera in Wales, and the British Government are responsible for that in England.

Small Modular Nuclear Reactors

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 28th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes an important point, and we will take into account all these factors, including value for money, when we make decisions in the next Parliament on whether to proceed in these cases.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, may I break the habit of a lifetime and welcome the statement made by the Prime Minister in his speech in Newtown last month, when he announced an SMR for Trawsfynydd? Can the Minister confirm that the five-year timescale announced by Cwmni Egino, which will be taking this forward, is within the framework of what he has just described and that this project will go ahead for 2027?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I cannot confirm any individual projects, but I have said that we are proceeding with making final investment decisions in the next Parliament on two further nuclear reactors.

Fire and Rehire

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am sorry the noble Baroness does not want to join us in condemning the potential strike action on the railways and elsewhere. As I said, we want to see good labour relations and employer-employee relations conducted in a meaningful and contented spirit, which is why we will try to introduce a code that will regulate these matters.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister recall an action 20 years ago in the Friction Dynamics factory in Caernarvon—the former Ferodo factory—where the employer had locked out the employees and hired a new workforce? It was taken to an industrial tribunal. The employees and the union won, but they were unable to get any compensation whatever. Can he assure the House that any forthcoming legislation will safeguard against such circumstances?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not familiar with that particular case; I will certainly look at it. I would be interested to know why they were unable to enforce the order that was made. Perhaps it was because the company went bankrupt, but I do not know; I would have to look at the particular case.

Energy Storage Capacity

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 5th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I take slight issue with my noble friend, in that I do not think we are offering long-term energy storage as the solution to the current massive price spikes but as something we need to do in the longer term. As we have more intermittent forms of power, it is important to store the power we generate for times when its intermittency means power is lacking. My noble friend also made a point about the importance of ramping up our own production, particularly from the North Sea, to help with security of supply. Unfortunately, it will not affect price, but it will affect security of supply.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware of the outstanding pumped storage scheme at Dinorwig in Gwynedd, which has enabled the network system to meet capacity demands without the extra necessity to meet the peak. Is he aware that two of the four surge shafts are being taken out of commission now and may be out of commission for two or three years, for renovation and safety checks? In these circumstances, is any provision being made to meet the loss that is a consequence of this work? Are there plans for further pumped storage facilities side by side with the nuclear programme?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Indeed, I am aware of the excellent Dinorwig facility. I remember studying it when I was an engineering student many years ago and it is an incredible feat of engineering. The noble Lord can be reassured that the capacity market auction has already secured enough standby capacity market supplies, through to 2025-26. We are aware of the point about Dinorwig.

Russian Oil and Gas Imports

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 7th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree in large part with what the noble Lord said. Of course we need to expand our renewable capacity as quickly as possible. We already have record amounts and we need to pursue that. We are introducing contracts for difference rounds every year to maintain the ongoing flow of supply. As the noble Lord is aware, we introduced a £9.1 billion package of support for the poorest households.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, we need to maintain the maximum possible pressure on Putin, obviously. The biggest problem facing mankind is global warming, which could wipe out humanity within a couple of centuries. That being so, would it not be totally irresponsible to restart coal burning in order to generate electricity when that generates 30 times more units of carbon than renewable and offshore generation?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That is a very wide-ranging question. I think I would disagree with the noble Lord: I think Putin is a bigger threat at the moment to worldwide peace and stability. The important thing to bear in mind with regard to climate change, which is of course an important subject, is the tiny percentage of global warming caused by our emissions in the UK, which are rapidly decreasing. It is something that we need to work on, on a global basis; just eliminating our emissions on our own is really not going to make any difference.

Subsidy Control Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Committee stage
Monday 7th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I cannot allow this debate to go without intervening very briefly. We have had arguments about the consultation with devolved authorities in previous deliberations of this Committee and I am not going to repeat those points. What I want to do, however, is to stress the need for equivalence, and for that equivalence to be perceived, between the role of the Secretary of State in the context of England and the devolved authorities in the context of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland because if we do not have that, we are building up a formula that is bound to cause problems.

I cannot possibly allow the comment about my friends in the SNP to go unchallenged, because they, of course, work very hard indeed in the interests of Scotland, as has been recognised by such a large majority of Scottish voters. However, the debate here is not about the relative strengths of the parties; it is about getting a system in this legislation that works. In the absence of a federal or confederal approach—and that, ultimately, will have to be the context in which these things are addressed—in the meantime, for goodness’ sake, let us get a formula that at least appears to be fair and does not have built within it the contradictions which this Bill has at present.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I was expecting more interventions before my reply—I offer my apologies.

These amendments relate to Clause 55, which provides, as has been stated, that the Secretary of State can direct a public authority to request a report from the subsidy advice unit for a proposed subsidy or subsidy scheme. This so-called call-in power will be used as a safety net where the Secretary of State considers that a subsidy or scheme is at risk of not complying with the subsidy control requirements or that it poses a risk of negative effects on competition or investment in the UK and therefore warrants further scrutiny.

In the majority of cases, the most potentially harmful subsidies will be those that meet the criteria for subsidies of particular interest. The Government’s proposal for how these criteria should be defined has been set out in illustrative regulations that have been made available to this Committee. However, it is inevitable that there will be some subsidies or schemes that fall outside those boundaries but would still benefit from the additional scrutiny offered by the SAU. The call-in power is a safety net. It provides a mechanism to catch potentially concerning subsidies that are not caught within the “subsidies of particular interest” definition and have not otherwise been voluntarily referred to the subsidy advice unit. It is expected that such subsidies will be few and will reduce further as the regime settles in.

When the Secretary of State decides to exercise this call-in power, the direction must be published. In addition, the subsidy advice unit must provide annual reports on its caseload, including any subsidies or schemes called in by the Secretary of State. These annual reports will be laid before Parliament. This transparency will help to ensure that the power is being used appropriately and that Parliament has oversight of how and when the power is being used.

Amendments 54, 56, 58 and 60 would allow the devolved Administrations to refer a subsidy or subsidy scheme to the subsidy advice unit under the terms of Clause 55. Similarly, Amendments 55, 57 and 59 would extend the power to call in subsidies for review by the subsidy advice unit to all local authorities in the United Kingdom.

The Secretary of State’s responsibilities and interests in the subsidy control regime are UK-wide. The subsidy control regime is a reserved matter. The UK Government are responsible for the compliance of the UK subsidy control regime in all parts of the United Kingdom with our international obligations, including the trade and co-operation agreement with the European Union. It is therefore right that the UK Government have responsibility for the referral mechanism that deals with any subsidies that fall outside of the established criteria for further mandatory scrutiny. It is also right that the UK Government oversee the functioning of the regime as a whole, including the caseload of the subsidy advice unit.

In response to the specific concerns raised by the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Purvis, I believe it is important that the positions of the devolved Administrations and other public authorities are taken into account in the exercise of this function. I assure noble Lords that the Secretary of State would take it extremely seriously if he received a request from another public authority to call in a particular subsidy or scheme. Of course, he would engage with the substance of that request and consider it on its merits, but I hope it goes without saying that officials and Ministers in my department would discuss the matter appropriately with the public authority that raised the concern; this would apply even if it were a subsidy given by the UK Government.

Subsidy Control Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, for tabling the lead amendment in this group, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, who ably introduced it. It was great to be reminded by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, of my previous existence in the campaign against the northern regional assembly—I dread to think how many years ago that was. I seem to remember that Mr Cummings was also involved in the campaign; the noble Lord missed his opportunity to have a go at poor Dominic for that. This is an interesting group of amendments which promotes some good questions. I will try to address the points from the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, and from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, on Amendment 25A, as well as the points from the noble Lords, Lord Ravensdale and Lord Wigley, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, helpfully reminded us, the context for this is the publication of the levelling-up White Paper. In that, we have announced a comprehensive programme of policies that will put the UK on a path towards greater economic prosperity in every region and place—including, I hope, the north-east of Scotland. We will do this through significant targeted investment, such as the £4.8 billion levelling-up fund that has been referred to, which will invest in infrastructure that improves everyday life across the UK, including by regenerating town centres and high streets, upgrading local transport and investing in cultural and heritage assets.

It is not in question that any government subsidy scheme set up in the context of this levelling-up fund or otherwise should be in compliance with the provisions under this Bill, once it is in force. However, as we discussed on Monday and as raised by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, again today, subsidies can of course be an important tool to achieve levelling up, but for reasons of time and efficiency I will focus today on the Bill itself and the amendments tabled. I am sure there will be plenty of opportunities to debate the levelling-up fund and its excellent proposals in this House in future.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Does the Minister accept that cultural levelling up is part of the Government’s aim, and that cultural facility away from London and the south-east is a very important part of life and the economic substructure? Therefore, is it in order for money to be used to attract cultural investment, whether in theatres, concert halls or other aspects, which may attract business away from London and might be caught under the provisions of the later clause which arises in this group? How is that going to work?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree. Personally, I am fully in favour of cultural institutions transferring out of London. I will address the relocation point in my later remarks.

This grouping spans several clauses of the Bill but, in responding to the amendments, I will keep coming back to the central refrain that I iterated on Monday as well. The Bill regulates the giving of subsidies where there is a market failure or an equity rationale, with the intention of minimising distortions to competition, investment and trade. It is intended to be a flexible and minimally burdensome regime that applies to subsidies of all types and in all policy areas. As such, my central contention that applies to a lot of these amendments is that there is no need to privilege or exempt certain sectors or highlight certain objectives. Nor is it for the Bill to dictate rigidly the purposes for which public authorities should use subsidies or how they should achieve their purposes.

Clause 10 concerns the creation of subsidy schemes and streamlined subsidy schemes. A streamlined subsidy scheme is made by a Minister of the Crown for the purposes set out in the Bill. Amendment 14 would clarify that the Government may create streamlined subsidy schemes for the purposes of supporting areas of relative economic deprivation. Specifying particular policy objectives at this stage on the face of the Bill may in fact lead to the power to create streamlined subsidy schemes being interpreted in an unduly narrow way in the future.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, first, I thank the dozen or so noble Lords who participated in this debate, which was very focused and has raised a number of issues that will need to be taken further. I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, for introducing her amendment, many parts of which overlap with mine; I certainly support her amendment in its own right, irrespective of how it interplays with mine. I am sure that she and other colleagues will accept the principle of product miles being an important element in the consideration of environmental and economic policy.

I was taken by the references the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, made to regional policy in England. This was touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, as well. That is absolutely valid, because circumstances vary from area to area, certainly between the south-east and the north of England, and between other areas. Where there are different circumstances one needs different policies and mechanisms of government that can deliver those policies in line with the areas’ requirements.

Therefore, in advocating these powers for the three devolved nations, I also accept entirely the argument that there should be an ability to fine tune policy for the regions in England. It is for those regions to stand up and be counted, and to demand the powers to do so. After all, the facility in Wales of having our own Government has enabled us to take new initiatives that have helped to solve some problems—not all of them, but some of them. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, whose support and that of the Green group I welcome for both amendments, has underlined on a number of occasions the need for there to be devolution to the regions of England.

I listened carefully to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, in particular, who raised a question that I do not think has been fully answered by the Minister regarding how the use of orders might be undertaken in Northern Ireland. That leads me on to the question, in responding to the Minster’s argument that there will be a separate policy statement on procurement reform, of whether that new policy and the legislation associated with it will be driven through by statutory instrument. We might be in a position where Wales and Scotland could, like Northern Ireland but for different reasons, be subject to that sort of policy.

What I want from the Minister before I conclude this short debate is some assurance that, in drawing up the consultation and procurement proposals he has in mind for a later stage, that will not go through the back door, which he is not admitting to doing through the front door in this Bill. I would be grateful if he could respond specifically on that question: that the procurement reform will not undermine the thrust of the argument we have had in the debate. I would be grateful for his comments on that before I conclude.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Government intend to deliver measures on procurement through a wider package of procurement reform. The aim is for primary legislation to be made in the second Session, as I said in my answer. I hope that is enough reassurance for the noble Lord.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that this will happen in the second Session, but I very much hope that it will not open a totally different view of the devolved competencies and the balance of powers needed not only between the three devolved nations, but regionally in England. I hope that that can be given greater thought.

I will not press the amendment, but I believe that the approach encapsulated in it can be combined with some of the other amendments we have already passed that will be part of the revised Bill that goes back to the House of Commons. If that is the case, there may be opportunities for Welsh MPs to pick up this matter in the House of Commons so that we can come back to it again when we consider how the House of Commons responded to the Bill as it finds it. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Clean Growth Fund

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 28th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point: there is great potential from geothermal energy. A number of promising trial projects are going on with such innovative technologies and of course I will look further into it.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, when the Clean Growth Fund was launched, the scheme was said to be open to all UK-based companies. Can the Minister confirm that it is indeed open to SMEs in Wales, for which the scheme is very relevant, and can he give an indication of how many of the 400 firms that have expressed an interest are from Wales?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can reassure the noble Lord that it is open to UK companies. I am pleased to say that Wales is still part of the United Kingdom, so all Welsh companies will be able to benefit. I do not have the precise number of Welsh companies that expressed an interest, but if that information is publicly available I will write to him with it.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister cited the example of pesticides, a subject on which there will almost certainly be unanimity. But on matters such as subsidy control, where there may be a justifiable difference in approach, does the Minister not accept that unless the Government are willing to accept a mechanism such as this to secure consent from the devolved Administrations, he is in effect imposing his solution on them, and cannot in any way claim that this Bill is agreed by the devolved nations—with all the consequences that flow from that unfortunate situation?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The Bill would legislate for subsidy control becoming a reserved matter. We are committed to consulting further with the devolved Administrations before proceeding, if we do, to any further legislation.

Energy White Paper

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 28th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness. The Government have a long history of supporting the development and deployment of wave and tidal stream technologies in the UK. To date, we have provided sustained and targeted support enabling the wave and tidal stream sectors to move from initial concept to prototypes and now on to the first arrays in practice.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, can we assume that the White Paper will give a definitive indication of the Government’s intention for the Wylfa site following Hitachi’s pulling out? Can the Minister tell the House whether both SMRs and fusion reactors are being actively considered for Wylfa and when the generic design assessments for these two technologies will be started?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I understand the concern in north Wales about this issue but Hitachi made it clear that withdrawing from the Wylfa project is a commercial decision that it has taken for its own domestic and business reasons. We understand that it is disappointing. We remain willing to discuss any new nuclear projects with any viable companies and investors wishing to develop sites in the UK, including that at Wylfa.

Small and Medium-sized Enterprises: Public Procurement Contracts

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 7th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can tell the noble Baroness that, since its launch in 2012, something like 20% of our start-up loans have gone to entrepreneurs from black, Asian and minority-ethnic backgrounds and, throughout this crisis, we have hosted a series of round tables on our wider support scheme for BAME businesses.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, the Government are keen in their EU negotiations to allow UK companies to benefit from state aid where appropriate. Will the Minister therefore confirm that it is equally important for the Governments of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to ensure that the SMEs within their own territory are helped to secure public procurement contracts for which those devolved Governments are responsible?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course, I cannot speak for the devolved Governments, but I am sure they are doing all in their power to ensure that as many small businesses as possible receive contracts.

UK Internal Market: White Paper

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 29th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I think it is fairly self-evident that we are committed to having unfettered access for goods from Northern Ireland to the UK single market, and this legislation will help to underpin that.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, clearly, it is important to get a UK single market working effectively, and that is seen by all four nations to be on a fair and transparent basis. However, does the Minister recognise that the acceptability of these proposals will depend on the credibility of any dispute resolution system? If so, will all four nations have an equal voice within such a system?

[Lord Callanan]

I hope there will not be any disputes, but if there are, they will be legal disputes and the correct forum for resolving those is the courts system. We have no intention of setting up an alternative dispute resolution procedure when we have one of the best and most efficient court systems in the world to resolve disputes.

Brexit: Preparations

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 21st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for his question. I know the close interest he takes in this matter, which he asked me about a couple of weeks ago. I hope he will understand why I was not able fully to answer his question then. It would indeed be a matter for legislation in this country although, given the terms of the Good Friday agreement, we would want to consult closely with the Irish Government.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

The Minister said that the European authorities should not ignore the first letter that was sent, and I am sure we would all concur with that. Assuming they do not ignore it, and that they respond to it over the next seven days, will he give an assurance that the tremendous waste of resources in this preparation exercise will immediately be suspended and the extension will be taken full advantage of in order to get an orderly Brexit—if Brexit has to happen?

[Lord Callanan]

The President of the European Council tweeted to say that the request was valid, and he had accepted it. Of course, the legal default remains in place, but as soon as this Parliament agrees a deal and the EU agrees a deal or an extension is granted, we will want to discontinue the arrangements for leaving on 31 October. But many of the preparations we are undertaking will be required on our eventual exit anyway.

Brexit

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 21st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I cannot say that that would be definite but it is important that we abide by the provisions of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act. Of course, the House passing a statute provides the appropriate coverage for doing that.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, in view of the Minister’s reference to the fact that the border in the Irish Sea will have implications, can he give an assurance that the contents of this Bill have been discussed with the Government of Wales?

[Lord Callanan]

Yes, we have certainly discussed many aspects of it with the Government of Wales.

Brexit: Customs Controls at Holyhead

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Thursday 17th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their latest proposals to avoid delays at customs control on goods being transported between Dublin and Holyhead, following the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to tell the House that the Government have this morning concluded a new withdrawal agreement with the EU. Our intention is to agree an ambitious future partnership, including a best-in-class free trade agreement, which will establish an effective customs agreement for the movement of goods between the UK and the EU once we leave. In a no-deal scenario, the Government have agreed to prioritise flow and move to new border requirements over time to allow businesses to adjust.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, we all realise that the trade relationship between Ireland, the north of Ireland and the United Kingdom has been a central sticking point in the Brexit process. But the devil is in the detail, and therefore the detail has to be transparent and watertight. Will the Minister tell the House what assessment the Government have made in the specific context of Northern Ireland-produced perishable goods bound for England, up to 60% of which go on lorries via Dublin and Holyhead, as to whether they will be subject to border controls at Holyhead? To avoid queues of 500 lorries stretching three miles long, the movement of goods through Holyhead has to remain seamless and unhindered, as it is today.

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord makes an important point. He can be assured that we are working hard to make sure that there are zero queues at Holyhead. We want the new arrangements to be as seamless as possible so that the transport of perishable goods goes forward without any hindrance.

Brexit: Preparations

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for his comments and join him in congratulating all the officials across government who are working on no-deal preparations. We have some excellent civil servants who are putting in a great deal of work to make sure that the country is prepared to honour the democratic decision the British people took to leave the European Union.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, at lunchtime, the BBC news reported that Mrs Merkel is looking for a customs union element in Northern Ireland in order to find some common ground. Given that Mrs May’s Government had that as a policy, and given the single market policy of the present Government, is it not possible to bring these together to find a compromise that can avoid us crashing out on 31 October?

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord makes a good point. We are seeking a compromise and have compromised considerably by conceding that Northern Ireland will remain aligned—part of the single market, effectively—for agri-foods and goods on the island of Ireland. We look to the EU to make similar compromises. No nation on earth has an internal customs border in its territory and it is unreasonable to expect the UK to do that.

Brexit Readiness and Operation Yellowhammer

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Let me explain to the noble Lord what these assumptions are all about. The Cabinet’s civil contingencies unit prepares the reasonable worst-case assumptions and then we do our best, working across the whole panoply of government, to mitigate those scenarios. In the case of social care, we are working closely with local authorities; this morning we had reports at a Cabinet committee from local resilience forums and from the devolved Administrations. The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government is working closely with all local authorities and with the local resilience forums to mitigate the possible impacts in social care, and across all the other areas that local authorities are responsible for. We have extremely good, collaborative working across the piece on this matter.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the noble Lord specifically referred to shellfish in his Statement—an industry of considerable importance in my part of north-west Wales. Can he give an assurance that, in circumstances of a no-deal Brexit, where those exporting shellfish to continental Europe have their product held up through no fault of their own and thereby lose tremendous value in trade, there will be a compensation scheme funded by the Government?

[Lord Callanan]

We will of course do our level best to make sure that the flow at the border does not result in any undue delays. There is a considerable amount of effort going into ensuring that, and there are appropriate plans in place to help industrial sectors and businesses that are adversely impacted by any of these effects. These are all contingency plans and we hope that none of them will come into operation. All the work we are doing is designed to make sure that there is a smooth flow of trade at the border and that none of the producers in north-west Wales will have cause for concern.

No-deal Update

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

There are indeed a number of other pieces of legislation currently held at various stages in both Houses. However, as my noble friend said earlier today, we do not require any of those Bills in order to have a functioning statute book on exit.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I will press the Minister further on the sheep meat sector. It is not just a question of the CAP replacement, but of who will be buying up those sheep on 1 November. Millions of farmers in Wales and other highland areas will be destitute if they do not get money. The Government have said that there will not be a slaughter scheme; is that still the position? If not, will there be an intervention purchase scheme?

[Lord Callanan]

We are aware of the challenges that exist for the agricultural sector. I confirmed in a response to the noble Baroness earlier that CAP payments will continue, but we are considering what other interventions need to be made to support the farming sector at what will be a difficult time.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Can the Minister confirm that, in the event of the vote in the other place on Monday leading to proposals for a different form of agreement, there is nothing in this order preventing another order from coming forward to further amend the date of exit if any changes that arise from the debate in the other place have to be negotiated with the EU?

[Lord Callanan]

No, there is nothing in this instrument that would conflict with that. What they are debating in the other place are effectively changes to the political declaration, not to the legally binding withdrawal agreement.

To avoid a conflict between UK and EU law, it is therefore essential that the instrument being debated today is made before 11 pm on 29 March so that it may come into force ahead of that time. This will align exit day with the new date and time on which the EU treaties cease to apply to the UK in EU and international law.

I am acutely aware of the huge amount of work undertaken by Members of both Houses to scrutinise the nearly 550 statutory instruments brought forward to prepare for exit. If this instrument did not pass, that work would be put under threat. I therefore hope that this House can agree on the necessity of this instrument and approve it so that, with the approval of the other place also, it can come into force and avoid serious confusion and uncertainty for businesses and individuals. I beg to move.

While I am on my feet, I want to take the opportunity to correct something that I said during exchanges with the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, at Oral Questions yesterday. The noble Baroness was in fact not a member of the Blair Government during the time of the Iraq war demonstrations, and indeed did not vote in favour of the Government’s decision to go to war. I have of course apologised to the noble Baroness, and I would like to take this opportunity to correct the record.

Amendment to the Motion

Brexit: No-deal Preparations

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I think we will have to wait to see what happens next week. It remains our view that Parliament should pass the deal because we think it is the best deal available, but we will await the outcome of the Council this weekend before commenting further.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that a Paris political website is reporting that President Macron is not minded to support this deal because of the lack of clarity? That being so, we would be crashing out a week on Friday. Do the Government believe that that is practical, given what they have already said about the need for more time?

[Lord Callanan]

It is difficult for me to comment on rumours on the internet or on Twitter. I would be surprised if that was the case, but any EU member state can veto an extension and if one does, as I have said, the legal position under Article 50, as voted for by Parliament, and under the EU withdrawal Act, voted for by this Parliament, is that we would leave on 29 June.

Brexit: Article 50 Period Extension Procedure

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

No, I cannot confirm that. I can also reassure the noble Baroness that we will not be seeking permission to hold another people’s vote. We have already had a people’s vote, and the people voted to leave. We are still committed to implementing the results of that decision.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, what happens if the European Union turns down an application by the United Kingdom for an extended period of time for Article 50 and it comes back here? Will we not then need primary legislation to avoid a cliff edge on 29 March? Do the Government have a Bill ready for that eventuality?

[Lord Callanan]

We will then have the choice of either passing the meaningful vote or we will leave by the normal operation of the law that this House has voted for.

Further Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I have not seen any particular demonstration; I do not take an awful lot of notice of them. There seem to be people from all sides shouting at all of us as we walk in. I often wonder why they think that it will make a difference if they shout loudly “Stop Brexit” every five minutes—that somehow we are all going to have a flash of inspiration and suddenly change our minds. The wider point, however, is that the votes of 17.4 million people should be respected. It was the largest democratic vote in the history of this country. We said that we would respect the outcome of the referendum, and this Government are committed to doing that, even though many noble Lords are not so committed. Perhaps we have another one here now.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I am grateful to the Minister, as always, but does he not accept that in neither the referendum nor the general election did any party advocate a no-deal leaving of the European Union? In those circumstances, should this not be ruled out—and if it cannot be ruled out by Parliament, should it not, in line with what is being shouted outside, go back to the people?

[Lord Callanan]

No, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. Neither the two-year time limit set by the notification of withdrawal Act on when the treaty will cease to apply to the UK, nor the exit date placed by Parliament in the EU withdrawal Bill, is dependent on whether we have a deal: they were firm commitments now set in statute at both European and domestic level. Of course we want to leave with a deal, but under domestic legislation we will leave on 29 March unless something changes. I give way.

Brexit: Article 50

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 5th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question, but I am afraid that I do not recognise the word “pause”. Pausing Article 50 is not an option. The UK could either revoke Article 50 or request an extension, but I am afraid that there is no remote control in DExEU with a pause button on it.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the suggestion made by Mr Hilary Benn in Brussels yesterday that the logical time to implement the leaving of the European Union is at the end of the implementation period? Should not Article 50 therefore be adjusted to that end?

[Lord Callanan]

I did not hear that suggestion yesterday, but if we did not leave the European Union until the end of 2020 we would not have an implementation period, would we?

Brexit: Support for Remaining in the EU

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 16th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for his constructive contribution, as always. We have to accept yesterday’s vote in Parliament. We have to talk to all sides of Parliament because there needs to be a majority for something. I am sure that the Prime Minister is up for constructive discussions with all sides.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, in view of the statement made by the Prime Minister yesterday that she will seek a consensus, will the Government now rule out a no-deal Brexit?

Brexit: Preparedness for EU Exit

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Thursday 25th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

We are looking at all of the potential implications. We are discussing with partners such as ports and ferry operators all the potential implications of no deal. We continue to negotiate to get a deal—that is what we want—but we are putting in place the appropriate contingency plans, operations and processes in case of no deal, as are other European countries, because that is the responsible thing to do.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, if the NAO’s warnings are correct, is it not crass stupidity for the Government not to contemplate putting back the Article 50 day by enough time to accommodate the necessary provisions if we indeed crash out without a deal?

Brexit: EU Commission

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 10th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As on so many of these matters, the noble Lord speaks great sense, unlike most of the rest of his party. One of the great advantages of Brexit is that we will leave the common fisheries policy, one of the great environmental disasters of our time. We will be an independent coastal nation and we will determine our own fishing policy in future.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Will the Minister address a question raised in the press this morning about a danger to do with lambs and sheep being exported to Europe after Brexit, whether it is a hard or a negotiated Brexit? A logjam in the ports or on the ships may mean that sheep and lambs will be held for days on end in inappropriate circumstances. What are the Government doing to address that?

[Lord Callanan]

There were concerning reports. All live exports to Europe need to have a journey log approved by the Animal and Plant Health Agency. We would not approve a journey log in the unlikely event of disruption at the borders. Animals would instead be kept on farms or be redirected to abattoirs in the UK.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 9th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As I said in previous answers, the House of Commons has rejected the option of remaining in the EEA, and our legal position is that we will leave the EEA when we leave the EU. Seeking to remain in the EEA does not pass the test that the Prime Minister has set for our future partnership. It would not deliver control of our borders or our laws, and it would mean continuing to accept all EU single market rules, so I do not think that is the right future for Britain.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister has stressed once again that the Government are considering and planning for every possibility. In that case, will he confirm that the Government are planning for the possibility of a no-deal Brexit and in those circumstances for a vote in Parliament requesting a confirmatory vote by the people? Can he confirm how long it would take for a confirmatory vote of that sort to be properly organised and take place?

[Lord Callanan]

I said we are planning for a no-deal Brexit. I do not know what the noble lord means by a “confirmatory vote”. If he means a second referendum, then, no, we are not planning for a second referendum, because we have already had a referendum and the vote was clear.

Brexit: Negotiations and No-deal Contingency Planning

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 4th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Of course we are dealing with a lot of different interlocutors as well as the official EU negotiating team, represented by Michel Barnier, and the Article 50 working group. We are also liaising with individual member states. It is fair to say that there is a variety of opinions. We think that we have set out a compromise. It was obtained at some difficult political cost, but it offers a way forward. A number of member states and individuals in the EU have commented that it offers a workable and viable way forward and they look forward to engaging on it. Of course, it is a negotiation. There have been various noises off, but we still await the official Commission response. Senior members of the task force have made it clear that they think it offers a viable discussion and way forward.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the Statement mentioning the wish of the Government to cover every eventuality. In those circumstances, can he confirm that a question was raised in Brussels about the position on 29 March if we are within reach of an agreement but are unable to reach it within that deadline, and whether the deadline can be adjusted in order to seek and achieve agreement if that is possible?

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord is correct that Article 50 sets out a mechanism by which the process can be extended, but we are very clear that we are not going to apply for it to be extended. We leave on 29 March and we believe that an agreement can be negotiated well before then. It will need to be done so that we can pass the appropriate legislation in the House of Commons and in this House.

Brexit Transition: European Parliament Membership

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Thursday 7th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Well, Parliament will get the opportunity to do so when we have negotiated the withdrawal. We have said that we will put it to a meaningful vote in both Houses.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, in answering me yesterday the Minister said the Government felt it was important that they planned for all eventualities. Why is he not planning for this one?

[Lord Callanan]

Because we think this is an eventuality that is not going to come about.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 6th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As the noble Lord is aware, we have offered the EU unconditional security guarantees, as is right and proper, and we are negotiating in good faith to achieve the free-trade relationship that he talked about.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, a moment ago the Minister made reference to the Government’s no-deal plan. Will he therefore confirm that the Government are seriously confronting the likelihood of leaving without a deal?

[Lord Callanan]

As I also said, we hope there will be a deal. We are working towards a deal and negotiating in good faith, as we believe our European partners are. However, as a responsible Government, it is important that we plan for all eventualities.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I am not in a position to share confidential government legal advice on this matter.

[Lord Wigley]

Well, no doubt the House has taken good note of that comment and at some time in the future perhaps that information will become available. I am struck by the Minister’s supreme confidence that this course will be followed to an inevitable conclusion, as I am sure many noble Lords are.

As we heard in earlier debates, that may not be the inevitable conclusion. It may well be that the House of Commons in its wisdom not only rejects the deal that the Government have negotiated but in the process rejects the Government themselves. At that point, whether by a general election or some other process, the question may well arise as to the irrevocability of Article 50. Noble Lords have a right to know the advice that has been given because it would be very pertinent indeed in those circumstances.

However, having said that, I believe the question may well be tested in the courts and therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Brexit: British Citizens

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Thursday 29th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I had not seen that poll but I am aware that the British people oppose most Liberal Democrat policies.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

In the circumstances of there being no agreement, what would be a meaningful vote in the other Chamber? Would MPs have the option to reject going out on World Trade Organization terms and to remain in the European Union?

[Lord Callanan]

We have been very clear that we want a deal, and at every subsequent stage we have reached agreement, so we are confident that we will get a deal. When we have a deal, we will put it to a vote in the House of Commons and in this House. We have been very clear that if that option is rejected, of course we leave under the Article 50 process anyway.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I suspect that we will still be in the process of negotiations at that stage. We have been clear that we are consulting closely with the Government of Gibraltar. Gibraltar is leaving the European Union at the same time as the UK is. We are negotiating for the UK and for Gibraltar, in close consultation with its Government. We recently had a ministerial meeting with them, chaired by my honourable friend Robin Walker, and we are keeping them closely informed about the process of the negotiation.

A second referendum would pose a serious risk of undermining our ongoing negotiating position. Worse still, it would prolong the period of uncertainty for businesses and citizens in the UK and EU. These are the unacceptable costs of what my noble friend referred to as a neverendum. In those circumstances, I urge the noble Lords to withdraw or to not move their amendments.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, the House has listened to the Minister with amazement over the last 20 minutes. We have had a repeat of the statement made last week, which the noble Lord, Lord Butler, succeeded in highlighting. If we end this process with no deal, there will be no meaningful vote for Parliament, because the only alternative to no deal is to leave on a no-deal basis. That is why there needs to be a safety net of referring the question back to the people. I get the impression that the Government believe that the referendum has given them the right to ignore the will of Parliament and override it by refusing such a meaningful vote. We will certainly come back to that.

There are two clear reasons why a confirmatory referendum should not be denied. The principle has been conceded in the context of triggering the first referendum and, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said, only a second referendum could gainsay that. Secondly, we are in the invidious position that Parliament would be asked to overturn the view of the people. That is obviously fraught with difficulties for anybody who is a democrat. Taking that together with the question of a meaningful vote for Parliament, I believe we have to provide the House of Commons with the hook necessary for it to return to this issue after we have finished with the Bill. When there is an opportunity to vote an amendment into this Bill on Report, I hope that we will give Members of Parliament the opportunity to consider a confirmatory referendum, if that appears to them to be the best way forward. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

That point has been addressed in exchanges earlier. The then Government made a clear commitment, in a leaflet delivered to every household in the country, that the result of the referendum would be respected. The people voted to leave the EU and the Government have committed to deliver on their instructions. Therefore, we will not seek to remain a member of the EU, as Amendment 190 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, seeks to achieve. I am sure he will not be surprised to hear me say this.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Before the Minister leaves that point, in the event of there being a no-deal Brexit, the Government would have to come back to Parliament to put it before MPs and this Chamber. In the event of MPs refusing to endorse that, will he confirm that the status quo ante will prevail and we would remain part of a united Europe?

[Lord Callanan]

No, I will not endorse that. I will come on to the circumstances in a minute.

Let me say directly to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, that while there are many possible outcomes for our future relationship, remaining in the EU is clearly not one which can be reconciled with the decision taken in the referendum.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords—

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am sorry but I intend to speak.

[Lord Callanan]

We have spent 45 minutes discussing the issues.

[Lord Wigley]

I have not intervened at any stage in this debate.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 7th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As the noble Lord is aware, I said that the common agricultural policy is based on land-based production subsidies, whereas we can now move to other, different policies instead. This is one of the benefits of Brexit; the common agricultural policy has been one of the worst things the European Union is responsible for.

[Lord Wigley]

On that very point, if there is going to be a new, overarching agricultural Bill, will the Minister confirm that this would be applicable only to England, since agriculture is totally devolved to the three other nations?

[Lord Callanan]

Yes, I believe Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will be able to pursue their own policies in this regard—which is another benefit of Brexit.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Because we do not think that Article 13 works in the context of UK law; it applies only to EU law. I have set out why we think we can do better.

The public consultation on the draft Bill closed on 31 January. The Government are analysing the responses and will publish a summary and next steps in due course—I hope before we get to Report. I hope this reassures the noble Baroness, and indeed my noble friend Lord Deben, about the Government’s firm stance on animal sentience.

[Lord Wigley]

The Minister emphasised that he hoped this would be brought forward by Report. If it is not, would he be prepared to look at an amendment along these lines to meet the Government’s shortcomings and ensure that the Bill covers the possibilities we have outlined in the debate, rather than relying on the possibility of future legislation that may not reach the statute book?

[Lord Callanan]

I do not want to give the noble Lord an exact commitment but, as I have said, we hope to have it by Report stage. If that is not the case we will look at what can be done in its place.

Amendment 30 seeks to transfer the obligations contained in Article 13—to have regard to the welfare requirements of animals as sentient beings when developing and implementing certain EU policies—to domestic law. Unlike Article 13, however, the amendment applies only to the formulation rather than the formulation and implementation of law and policy. Furthermore, once the UK has left the EU we will obviously no longer be a member state and therefore no longer formulate or implement any EU laws or policies. Therefore, by referring to the obligations contained in Article 13, it is not clear what the effect of the amendment would be in practice. Although it is assumed that its intention is to require the welfare requirements of animals to be taken into account in formulating domestic law and policy, it appears that the amendment would only require it when formulating and implementing EU policy and law, which of course we would no longer be doing. As I have said, the Government have published a draft Bill which introduces a clear duty on Ministers to have regard for animal welfare when formulating and implementing all government policy and not only the six areas I mentioned earlier.

Amendment 98, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, seeks to apply the requirements of Article 13 to the use of Clause 7. It would require Ministers to pay full regard to animal welfare requirements when introducing any legislation under Clause 7. I remind noble Lords that the purpose of Clause 7 is to allow the Government to address deficiencies in retained EU law arising from our withdrawal. Clause 7 provides powers for Ministers to make secondary legislation to deal with any problem that would arise on exit—for example, to remedy any provisions that would have no practical application after the UK has left the EU.

However, the power is temporary and can only be used for up to two years after exit. After that point it will expire. Similarly, the proposed amendment to Clause 7 would only have effect for two years from the date of our withdrawal from the EU. The amendment would also only apply to those regulations introduced by Ministers before March 2021 for the purposes of addressing deficiencies arising from our withdrawal. Therefore, the limited protection provided for animals by the amendment would also expire on 30 March 2021.

The amendment would not hold Ministers to the standards required in Article 13 two years after we have left the EU and, therefore, would weaken the current obligation in Article 13. The provisions set out in our draft Bill in December go beyond the two years following our exit from the EU and will apply to more than just those regulations that deal only with any deficiencies arising from the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful that the important issue of children’s rights has been raised. I thank noble Lords for these amendments, which seek to make changes relating to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and the charter of fundamental rights, specifically to incorporate them into domestic legislation via the Bill and to impose statutory duties on Ministers to consider the UNCRC when making regulations. Many of the noble Lords who have spoken to these amendments have a track record of tirelessly championing children’s rights over the years, and the issue is of utmost importance to them and to this Government. Protecting children’s rights is paramount, and I assure noble Lords that I have heard their concerns about how existing rights and protections for children, and our commitment to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, will continue as the UK exits the EU.

Amendments 37 and 38, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Massey of Darwen and Lady Greengross, seek to provide that some or part of the charter of fundamental rights would remain part of domestic law following withdrawal from the EU. As a number of noble Lords have observed, we have already debated the wider issue of the charter at length and noble Lords will be pleased to hear that I will not go through the general arguments today, although I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, for rehearsing some of them. I take the opportunity again to reassure the Committee that the Government remain fully committed to children’s rights and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Our ability to support and safeguard children’s rights will not be affected by the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.

I have heard the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, about the impact of Brexit on children’s rights and the need to ensure that their welfare, safety and best interests are not compromised as we leave the EU. The rights and best interests of children are already, and will remain, protected in England primarily through the Children Act 1989, which sets out a range of duties to safeguard and promote the welfare of children, including making the child’s welfare the paramount consideration for any court—I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, referred to that. Children’s rights and best interests are further protected through the Adoption and Children Act 2002, which among other things ensures that the child’s welfare is the paramount consideration in all decisions relating to adoption. In addition, other legislative and administrative measures are in place, including the Children Act 2004, which imposes general safeguarding duties in relation to children on various bodies.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own measures for the protection of children’s rights which fully comply with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Additionally, the European Convention on Human Rights as a whole offers the protection of children’s rights, and this is implemented domestically by the Human Rights Act 1998.

[Lord Wigley]

The Minister referred to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland having devolved competence. Can he give an assurance that all the powers they currently have in that context will be maintained after Brexit?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I will need to write to the noble Baroness with the exact amount of billing, as I do not have those figures in front of me at the moment.

I turn to Amendment 353, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stephen. The Government already keep NHS performance and health outcomes constantly under review, including through the NHS outcomes framework, which measures a number of health indicators intended to form an overarching picture of the current state of health and care services in England. We are committed to positive and productive engagement with the devolved Administrations going forward as we seek a deal that works for the entire United Kingdom.

The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care also publishes an annual assessment on the performance of NHS England, including how it has met its mandate from the Government, as well as an annual report on the overall performance of the health service.

[Lord Wigley]

As the Minister has confirmed that there is in fact ongoing, detailed monitoring of these matters, can he confirm that we are losing National Health Service staff returning to the European Union and are having greater difficulty in recruiting from Europe to fill the vacant spaces?

[Lord Callanan]

I am not sure that is the case. Obviously there are people returning to the EU all the time, and different people coming to the UK to take up job offers. We can get into detailed figures, but I do not think there is any large-scale exodus of health service staff.

For the reasons I have set out, this amendment is both unnecessary and risks creating unwelcome new burdens at a time when that is least appropriate. I hope I have been able to provide noble Lords with sufficient reassurance.

Brexit: Gibraltar

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 29th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I say to the noble Lord that I think it is clear. The Prime Minister said in Parliament on 18 December that,

“we will be … negotiating to ensure that the relationships are there for Gibraltar as well. We are not going to exclude Gibraltar from our negotiations for either the implementation period or the future agreement”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/12/17; col. 758.]

It could not be clearer.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Does the Minister not accept that the predicament of Gibraltar would be largely overcome if we remained in the single market and the customs union?

[Lord Callanan]

I will repeat what has been said in the discussions we have had many times on this: we share the position of the Labour Front Bench that we are leaving the single market and leaving the customs union.

European Union

Debate between Lord Wigley and Lord Callanan

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I think that what happens to the European Union after we leave is a matter for the remaining member states to determine.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that, if it appears over the coming months that the Government will fail to get anything but the hardest of hard Brexits, and if in the meantime these ideas about the future of Europe develop, the Government still have the option to withdraw their Article 50 application?