Wales: Customs Sites

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, if 100% of the Holyhead traffic had to go to Birmingham, it would take up 40% of Birmingham’s capacity. If it had to go 100% to Warrington, it would take up 20% of its capacity. So we are very unlikely to see any congestion at those two interim inland ports. In terms of distance delay, the Warrington site is located for those trucks going to the eastern ports and the Birmingham site is located for those going to the short-straits ports, so we do not anticipate delay or cost in relation to that.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister accepts that Warrington is totally inappropriate, and I am glad that a location has been found on Anglesey and hope that it moves forward very quickly. But perhaps I may press the Minister on another question. As I understand it, the digital infrastructure for border checks at Holyhead from 1 January still has not been fully tested, and, if things go wrong, it will have massive implications for the flow of trade and for local congestion. What urgent measures are being taken to deal with that scenario?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I can reassure the noble Lord that we are on track to have the digital infrastructure up and running by 1 January. I completely accept that we are running on a very tight timetable, but if we take, for example, the GVMS system—which I think is the one that he is referring to—that has been available for testing by hauliers and carriers since September and will be released to all hauliers on 8 December.

Public Procurement (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 16th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness and I very much agree with her comments on working more locally. I want to raise three points with the Minister in the limited time we have.

First, I ask for an assurance that no procurement contracts currently in force will be undermined, nullified or constrained by these regulations, and that no new contracts entered into by devolved Governments in Wales and Northern Ireland—I realise that Scotland may be different—will be made void by any part of these regulations if such contracts are a renewal of existing procurement contracts or are issued based on the same principles.

Secondly, I draw attention to paragraph 10 of the notes accompanying these regulations, which refers to “regular engagement” having been undertaken with the Welsh, Scottish and Norther Ireland Governments, but does not say whether agreement was reached on these matters with those Governments. Perhaps that could be clarified.

Thirdly, I draw attention to Regulation 16, which refers to:

“The Water Industry (Specified Infrastructure Projects) (English Undertakers)”


and puts the Minister for the Cabinet Office in place of the European Commission. Does “English Undertakers” refer to undertakers operating in England, or does it include operators based in England who may be operating in Wales? If so, should there not be some reference to Welsh Ministers in that context? Those are the three points I wish to raise.

Covid-19 Lockdown: Economic Support

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

I absolutely agree that it is a top priority that we do not stay in lockdown for a day longer than we have to. It was done with great reluctance because of the very rapid expansion of the virus across parts of England, which had not seen it accelerating at the pace that it has in the last week or so. Nobody wins from a lockdown, but we are also very aware of the pressure on health services and need to ensure that the NHS is able to cope with the surge that is inevitably coming at us, as we know from the data we have now. This is one of the advantages that we have over the first lockdown: we see this tsunami of infections approaching a little further ahead than we did six or nine months ago. Therefore, we are trying to react to that, but I absolutely agree that we do not want to stay in lockdown for a moment longer than we have to.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, when the Government put England into a new lockdown, it was announced that the furlough scheme would be extended for England. When the Prime Minister was challenged whether this would likewise be the case for Scotland, he said of course it would, so why did the UK Government refuse the Welsh Government’s original request that furlough be available for businesses in Wales at those times when Wales is in lockdown, thereby ignoring the pressing needs of business in Wales and causing unnecessary uncertainty?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, we have made very substantial payments to the devolved authorities over the last few months and increased those payments in October by £1.3 billion. We are all in this together, as my right honourable friend the Chief Secretary said yesterday. We keep all these situations under continual review.

Civil Servants: Public Procurement

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 29th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, Ministers are bound by the Ministerial Code and civil servants are bound by the Civil Service Management Code, from which I have quoted. Special advisers are also required to conduct themselves in accordance with the code of conduct for special advisers and the Civil Service Code.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister accepts that the public procurement system has to be whiter than white, I am sure, but does he accept that the registration of interests is as much to protect public servants as it is to protect the wider public interest in the objective and open placement of any public contracts?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, these issues are important; in my initial reply, I tried to convey the importance that I attach to probity. I recognise the role of transparency therein. I have told the House about the current good practice inside government. I personally believe that it is efficacious but obviously I listen to everything said by noble Lords.

EU: Visa-free Short-term Travel Mobility

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I draw attention to my registered interests. Does the Minister accept that performing musicians need the facility to travel at short notice to work in other parts of our continent? We are repeatedly told that the soft power of cultural exchanges is the UK’s strongest lever in today’s international world. Why are the Government willing to contemplate a no-deal Brexit which will strangle that influence within the European setting?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have referred more than once to the Government’s efforts to assist short-term activity in the course of the discussions we are having on mode 4. Obviously, movement and activity within different member states is an issue for them and for the EU. I repeat to the House that this is an important area. I believe that we have made generous, important and significant proposals and, as I say, discussions are ongoing.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 8th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak to my noble friend’s amendment and I agree with every word she said. I do not have a great deal to add. I also agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said. That emphasises that we are not talking about an issue of principle in any of the amendments in the group but one of degree. It is worth reminding ourselves that there is widespread agreement across the House on most of contents of the Bill. That has been recognised even on a day like today when there have inevitably been Divisions, as there always will be. We are all agreed in our opposition to huge variations in the size of constituencies and that we should aim for equality—not precise arithmetic equality but much greater equality.

As regards my background in fighting elections, if anyone is qualified to speak on the issue of huge variations in constituency size, I can probably, without too much vanity, claim that qualification. At one stage, I represented a seat with an electorate of 57,000 and at another represented a seat with an electorate of 100,000. I therefore bow to no one in my belief that there should be far greater equality in constituency size, and that is agreed across the House.

We also all agree across the House—I include the Government in this—that there is much more to it than the simple question of arithmetic when determining constituency boundaries. We know all the guidance given to the Boundary Commission but in the Bill the Government acknowledge this issue by exempting certain constituencies from the general framework in which boundaries must be drawn. There are five such constituencies, whose inclusion I support but not for the flimsy reason that the Government claim—that they are all in one category. That is true to the extent that they are all islands or groups of islands but there also is a great deal of difference between them. No obvious similarities spring to mind between Anglesey and the Shetlands, or between the Isle of Wight and the Western Isles. Many more geographic issues need to be taken into account than the category of being islands, which is the only one that the Government seem to acknowledge, with all the frailties of that argument.

I agree with my noble friend’s amendment, which seeks greater flexibility and, in particular, has the important characteristic regarding Wales mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and my noble friend Lady Hayter. I do not hesitate to repeat what I said in Committee. I was shocked at the impact of the boundary review proposals that we are considering in the Bill on representation in Wales. The House should walk on the other side on that issue with great care.

In conclusion, there is no great issue of principle that divides the Government from those of us who feel that there should be greater flexibility. All that we are asking is that they should change the rules in the Bill to allow a little more flexibility for the Boundary Commission, and Minister should offer more flexibility when he responds.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I very much agree with previous speakers on this group of amendments and support Amendment 18, to which I have added my name and, in the absence of my good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, would be happy to move it, were that to be appropriate, if the Government were unwilling to move in that direction or to adopt an amendment moving in that direction.

Amendment 18 might be seen by some colleagues as being the more extreme option within this group, which seeks greater tolerance around the mean number of electors per constituency. That amendment applies only to Wales, and I appreciate the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Lords, Lord Tyler and Lord Grocott. All referred to the challenging situation in rural Wales. It is therefore perfectly in order for noble Lords to support the smaller variations around the mean in England or Scotland, if they so choose, and I support their amendments seeking greater flexibility there. However, the imposition of still further flexibility in Wales can be taken on board because it does not change the number of seats allocated to Wales, merely the distribution within it. As has been stated, this would allow greater flexibility in respecting natural communities, geographic sparsity and ease of travel.

Wales should have at least 36 parliamentary seats but that is not the issue at stake in Amendment 18. It gives the Boundary Commission for Wales greater flexibility, if it chooses to use it, to respond to the topography and communities of Wales. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, suggested, constraining them into a straitjacket imposed by Westminster is not helpful. I urge the Government to accept this amendment or at least table an amendment of their own to meet these pressing arguments.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Hayter in her amendment and have added my name to the important amendment for Wales of my noble friend Lord Hain and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, Amendment 18. I encourage them to press it to a vote. I shall not repeat the case that they made in Committee. However, the figure of 35 Members from Wales has been sacrosanct for decades in my long political career. Specifically, can the Minister say when that principle was breached in the past? Please give me the year. There may be one but it stands out as an exception.

The only matter that I wish to emphasise is that travel in south Wales is from north to south, down the valleys, and infrequently across mountains from east to west, mentioned by my noble friends Lord Grocott and Lady Hayter. My constituency for 41 years bordered that of my noble friend Lord Hain to the west. I can count on one hand the number of times that I went on political business to his constituency. Likewise, the Maesteg part of the Bridgend constituency to the east met mine on the top of a mountain. I probably went to that constituency less than half a dozen times, although many constituents from there came to work in mine. That demonstrates that the travel direction in Wales is north to south, not east to west, and that is the community interest.

The reduction in the number of Welsh seats now proposed would cause havoc in the make-up of south Wales seats, be a massive reorganisation and break up long-standing ties. The Brecon and Radnorshire constituency has been mentioned as one example where there should be special consideration. Coming from a family of sheep breeders, I enjoyed campaigning there and seeing the sheep of Breconshire. However, I travelled 40 or 50 miles there not looking for sheep but for voters—and towns, of which there are few and they are far apart. I pray in aid what Sir Alfred Mond, founder of Mond Nickel and ICI, and the MP for the old Carmarthenshire seat, once said. He later became the first Lord Melchett and his statue is in Pontardawe. He said that Carmarthen is not a constituency but a continent. The same could be said of Brecon and Radnorshire, and other large seats. There should be some flexibility and the number of seats in Wales should not stand at the figure now proposed.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I think—I think—I was right the first time and the amendment has been proposed.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to support the noble Lord on this amendment and to introduce my own amendment, which is linked to it. The noble Lord spoke with passion on this matter in Committee and his commitment to Brecon and Radnorshire inspires us all. We all have our memories of the Brecon and Radnorshire constituency. It has been represented by three different parties over my political lifetime. I remember going to Patagonia in 1965 with Tudor Watkins, who was then the Labour Member of Parliament. I served with Caerwyn Roderick, who took over subsequently, and we had Richard Livsey, of course, who was a colleague in this Chamber of many noble Lords. We also had Jonathan Evans as a Conservative MP. All three parties—Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative—had their own roots in the Brecon and Radnorshire constituency and they all had representatives of calibre. It would be a tragedy if a constituency such as this, with its rural nature, was lost just to get the sums right over the whole of the UK.

My amendment links the constituency of Montgomeryshire into this equation. Montgomeryshire is also a rural county—a scattered rural county. I declare an interest as my father and all his forebears came from Montgomeryshire. My wife, Elinor, was born in Llanidloes and both her parents had all their roots in Montgomeryshire. It is a mellow county that does not look to the craggy wildness of Gwynedd to the north-west or to the industrial belt of Clwyd to the north-east. It is a county in its own right and should remain as such. I believe that the way to handle this issue is to define the county of Powys as having two integral seats in the House of Commons. By deciding that those two seats stand, you define to the north—the north-west and the north-east—an area that has a character of its own and can be adjusted to have the appropriate number of representatives in the rural west and in the industrial east; likewise to the south in the industrial belt running through south-west Wales.

I believe that getting Brecon and Radnorshire and Montgomeryshire right—getting the county of Powys right—in the Bill gives the opportunity for the commissioners to do justice to the rest of Wales. That is why I am delighted to support the noble Lord’s amendment and to put forward my own.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I wish to speak briefly to both amendments in this group. In Committee, I spoke to the noble Lord’s similar amendment to add Brecon and Radnorshire to the list of protected constituencies in Wales, and I would like to expand on the comments I made then. I am very familiar with both the Brecon and Radnorshire constituency and the Montgomeryshire constituency, having campaigned and canvassed in both over many years. I can perfectly understand the motives behind these amendments and the desire to protect these constituencies’ borders. Both are in beautiful, rural mid Wales and have a long history, Brecon and Radnorshire having existed since 1918 and Montgomeryshire since an incredible 1542. It is understandable that electors feel a close affinity with their constituency and that a significant community cohesion has developed over many years.

Brecon and Radnorshire and Montgomeryshire hold a special place in the hearts and minds of Liberal Democrats too, and we are proud of the way in which our MPs, Richard Livsey, Roger Williams and Jane Dodds in Brecon and Radnorshire, and Clement Davies, Emlyn Hooson and Alex Carlile in Montgomeryshire worked on behalf of their constituencies and communities over the years.

But now, of course, regrettably, all the constituencies in Wales are facing upheaval and a new reality as a result of the Government’s decisions in this Bill. However much we would like to stay within the comfort blanket of our present constituencies, we have to accept that we cannot lose eight MPs and expect constituency boundaries to remain the same. I am content with the decision that Ynys Môn will become a protected island constituency, but while that makes sense, creating another protected constituency will have an adverse impact on all the other new constituencies across Wales. We must have a fair system that is applicable to all constituencies and we must now have the confidence to allow the Welsh Boundary Commission to work within that system.

However, experience has shown that MPs who represent larger constituencies face a number of practical issues. An example is whether they should establish more than one constituency office—one in the north and one in the south of their area—so that constituents have access to them. How many staff do they need in order to run more than one office? Also, how do they deal with the media that question their expenses? The expenses of an MP in the largest constituency by area in the UK are often compared adversely with those of an MP in the smallest and most compact constituency. I hope that the Government will help to prevent this sort of unfair criticism in the future.

I finish by reiterating one other point I made in Committee. With a reduced voice from Wales in Westminster now, I hope that the Senedd will take the decision to increase the number of Members that the electorate of Wales can elect to be their voice in Cardiff. During the past few months, the Senedd has shown the people of Wales that it can use its powers effectively, and now it must give itself the tools to do so even more effectively.

Restriction of Public Sector Exit Payments Regulations 2020

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I first declare an interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

I do not object to the principle of a cap, but these regulations erode the rights of councils to decide workforce changes. Regulation 11 requires Treasury consent for a full council decision in such matters. It is inconsistent with the Government’s claimed support for devolving power to local authorities.

These regulations represent yet another government somersault. The Government have abandoned the values they defended back in 2015, when the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, referred to the need for full council approval to relax the cap without any Treasury consent. Will the Minister confirm that these regulations undermine the 2013 agreement between unions and employers on the Local Government Pension Scheme, and the 25-year guarantee of no change in the Public Service Pensions Act 2013?

Where are the transitional arrangements to protect people from the cliff edge of the cap? Pension strain payments should not be in the cap because that can reduce people’s pensions for life. The Treasury’s approach would mean that key local government workers, earning £30,00 to £40,000 a year, could, if made redundant, suffer pension reductions of up to a staggering 40%. These regulations do not affect only the highest paid staff. Can the Minister assure us that the regulations, if passed, will come into force at the same time as changes to the local government pension schemes? The Government’s consultation ends on 9 November. It is essential not to have a gap between the two sets of regulations.

The Treasury’s equality impact assessment was not published when the regulations were tabled. Why not? Is it because paragraph 2.4 of the assessment says that the

“target scope of this policy … is the high earners in the public sector workforce”?

The reality is that these regulations will damage the pensions of long-serving key workers earning between £30,000 and £40,000. That, surely, is unacceptable.

House of Lords: Number of Members

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord sat in this House when it was much larger than it is today. So far as stuffing the House is concerned, Mr Blair put 374 Peers in this place.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, my party, Plaid Cymru, has four times as many Members in the House of Commons as it has in this Chamber. If the proportions were correct, we would have a Chamber of just 200 Members. Given that that is not going to happen, is the only way for smaller parties to get a fair voice here by having a fully elected Chamber that would deliver greater representational fairness and give this Chamber the political credibility that it currently lacks?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the voice of Wales is extraordinarily important, and it is well served in this House by some of the outstanding Members who come from that great Principality. The noble Lord makes a point of policy. The last coalition Government presented to your Lordships and the other place proposals for an elected House, but they did not at that time find favour.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th September 2020 Grand Committee

Wales will take the biggest hit in terms of constituencies lost in the next boundary review due to the large population shifts in the last two decades, but a 5% variance will double down on that because it will have a disproportionate impact on Wales due to the unique challenges Welsh geography poses. Wales should be treated fairly and not punitively, so it is crucial that the Boundary Commission for Wales is given greater flexibility to take account of this unique geography. There will always need to be a variance, but I submit that a 15% variance strikes a balance between having constituencies that are broadly equal and ones that reflect the local community and represent their communities. I very much hope that the Minister will accept this amendment so I do not need to press it on Report.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 22 in the name of my noble friend Lord Hain, who spoke so impressively in support of it. I will also address the amendment put forward by my noble friend Lord Foulkes and I particularly warmed to the case made for Cornwall. However, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, that if our amendment relating to Wales is not acceptable, there is nothing to stop similar, parallel amendments being put forward with a case for England, Scotland or, indeed, Cornwall itself. That is in the hands of noble Lords in this Committee or on the Floor of the House on Report. All I would say is that the case for Wales stands out because of the extent of the changes proposed by virtue of the rules being put forward.

I will pick up on one point that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, made about the valley communities. The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, will be familiar with this as well. When I was a councillor in Merthyr before becoming a Member of Parliament, I had good friends who had never been to the Cynon valley, the next valley to the west, or the Rhymney valley, the next valley to the east. That is the nature of the valley communities. It is not because of a closed mentality but because the geography and topology of the area dictates it.

We have already debated the number of seats that Wales should have in the House of Commons and I hope that the Government will give careful thought to that between now and Report. Amendment 22 addresses the other aspect of this issue—the factor that led to Wales having a slightly higher representation than is fair statistically. That does indeed relate to geography and topography and the nature of Wales, the distribution of our population and, in particular, our communities.

As I said at Second Reading, MPs are representatives not delegates. If they were delegates, then, arguably, the number should correspond to the number of electors on whose behalf they cast their votes in the legislative process. If that were the case, they should also reflect the political balance of their constituencies by proportional representation which, of course, the House of Commons has rejected. If MPs are not elected on such a basis, it is quite illogical that their constituencies should be determined by that very dimension.

MPs deliver a service to their constituents. That involves making themselves available to discuss, dealing with individuals and with groups of constituents, a diverse range of issues, and taking them up at Westminster. As MP for Caernarfon, I represented a range of different communities of interest in the 92 towns and villages which made up my then constituency. I had to be reasonably knowledgeable about farming and fishing, manufacturing industry and slate production, river pollution and radioactivity, tourism and higher education, as well as a whole range of social legislation and service delivery. I had 28 community councils all expecting to see me on a regular basis, and I worked very closely indeed with Gwynedd Council, the unitary authority within which my constituency was wholly located. I had to work within the twin structures of UK government departments and the Welsh Office, as then was, and deal with a plethora of all-Wales bodies. I had to discuss and correspond about such issues in two languages, since 84% of my constituents had Welsh as their first language, and I had a five-hour journey each way, each week, between Caernarfon and Westminster.

My point is this. If I had had a compact seat in London, I could have undertaken my duties as MP in far less time than was needed to do so in Caernarvon. For there to be an equivalence in the service afforded by an MP to constituents, there has to be some weighting in the structure of representation. Rural areas, communities for whom London is remote, areas where the structure of government is different and communities of a different nature to those of metropolitan England—all these should have a representational weighting to achieve an equivalence of service delivery. In practical terms, it would be ludicrous, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, emphasised, for a county such as Powys to have only one MP. The south-east of that county looks to Newport and Cardiff for many services, the south-west to Swansea, the north-west to Aberystwyth and Bangor and the north-east to Wrexham. The commission which draws up any new Welsh constituency boundaries should start with the assumption that Powys has two MPs, and the rest should follow from there.

There should be a flexibility in the numerical size of constituencies to allow such a structure, and Amendment 22 goes a long way to provide this. There can never be a perfect answer that fits all circumstances, but I believe there should be some guarantee in both constituency service terms and the coherence of a national voice, of a de minimis representation for Wales in the House of Commons and, within that, the flexibility to make it work for its communities. Amendment 22 offers that possibility and I commend it to the Committee.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I will not repeat some of the debate on the previous grouping, when my noble friend Lord Blencathra and I made comments on a number of issues in relation to some of the localities we have discussed today and the scale of geography that different constituencies face. I merely repeat my observation that I have a Cornish father and I was born in Devon, so I have sympathy with and understanding of the emotive issues that that division may generate.

Perhaps I may clarify one point for the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, because he was not sure about the balance between the numbers game, to use his phrase, I think, and the influence of local factors. I say this with at least two glass walls between me and the Government Whip, because she may want to hit me for pointing this out. In fact, in the legislation to which I referred, Schedule 2 says that the electorate of any constituency “shall be”, in other words the number is pre-eminent, whereas the requirement to take factors into consideration is described by “may”, as the noble Lord is indicating. Therefore, one has pre-eminence over the other.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 10th September 2020 Grand Committee

No other nation is experiencing the hit that Wales is under the Bill. Wales should be treated fairly, not punitively. Setting a minimum number of Welsh constituencies with legislative precedent strikes a balance, creating more equal-sized constituencies but not at the expense of geography, history and traditions, community ties and, ultimately, democracy. I very much hope, therefore, that the Minister will, in responding, understand the case for the amendment and that the Government will accept it or a version of it.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 14 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, to which I have added my name. It addresses the level of representation that devolved Wales should have in the House of Commons.

As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, described, Amendment 14 provides for a minimum of 35 MPs from Wales. Two distinct issues are at stake with regard to the appropriate level of representation from Wales and they are interrelated. We shall return to the second, the appropriate size of constituency, on which the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has commented, when we debate Amendment 22, so I will not go on to that aspect now. The first and more fundamental issue is whether Wales—or, for that matter, Scotland or Northern Ireland—should, as some suggest, have fewer MPs in future compared with the level that we have enjoyed in the past because we now have our own elected legislatures.

The question arises as a direct result of the ad hoc system of devolution that has been developed over recent years. When non-devolved issues such as general taxation and social security—or, for Wales, policing—arise, it is totally unacceptable that Wales should have a lesser voice because of the existence of our own legislature, dealing with other matters such as education or housing. If it is unfair for Welsh MPs to legislate on English matters, as is quite arguable, it is the same unfairness as having English MPs voting on matters relating to Welsh-language television, for example, as is currently the case. Those difficulties would be sorted by a federal or confederal constitution, but as successive Governments at Westminster have refused to face such anomalies, I am afraid that they have to live with the consequences or cobble up some ad hoc system such as English votes for English laws, which is not entirely satisfactory.

These anomalies certainly do not justify the overall reduction in the number of Welsh MPs because of our unbalanced or inconsistent devolution settlement. Amendment 14 proposes a de minimis of 35 MPs—a reduction of five seats compared with the present level but well above the 29 seats recently advocated. The reduction of five seats is a recognition that relative population is a valid consideration, but it leaves some legroom and flexibility to take on board community considerations, which we will discuss later under Amendment 22.

Amendment 14 is a compromise. I could well make the case that the appropriate level should be maintained at the current 40 Members. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, and I, as well as other supporters of the amendment, are being pre-eminently reasonable. The amendment offers the possibility of a sensible compromise and I commend it to the Committee.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, these hybrid proceedings are very strange. I was in the Committee Room on Tuesday, so I know that my face is appearing on large screens in front of those noble Lords who are present—quite a frightening prospect.