No-deal Update

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

There are indeed a number of other pieces of legislation currently held at various stages in both Houses. However, as my noble friend said earlier today, we do not require any of those Bills in order to have a functioning statute book on exit.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I will press the Minister further on the sheep meat sector. It is not just a question of the CAP replacement, but of who will be buying up those sheep on 1 November. Millions of farmers in Wales and other highland areas will be destitute if they do not get money. The Government have said that there will not be a slaughter scheme; is that still the position? If not, will there be an intervention purchase scheme?

[Lord Callanan]

We are aware of the challenges that exist for the agricultural sector. I confirmed in a response to the noble Baroness earlier that CAP payments will continue, but we are considering what other interventions need to be made to support the farming sector at what will be a difficult time.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th April 2019 Lords Chamber

Debate on whether Clause 1 should stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I will say a brief word in line with the comments I made on a matter that I flagged up at Second Reading. The main issue overshadowing today’s debate is the danger of us reaching midnight this Friday with no agreement and of the UK leaving the EU on a no-deal basis, despite the House of Commons having voted overwhelmingly against such an eventuality.

I tried to table an amendment to address this along the lines of that tabled by Joanna Cherry MP in the other place—proposed new Clause 20—which was successfully tabled and appeared on the Commons Order Paper for 3 April. My new clause was ruled out by the clerks as being outside the scope of the Bill. If Joanna Cherry’s amendment was in order, I fail to understand how mine could be out of order—a view shared by Jo Maugham QC, who helped me draft it.

The amendment sought to ensure that, if the UK Government failed to pass their meaningful vote or to secure an extension, and we therefore faced a no-deal scenario, the Government would be required to table a Motion indicating that the House of Commons agreed to leave the European Union without a withdrawal agreement—that is, on a no-deal basis—and if that Motion failed to pass, as might be expected, the Government would be compelled to revoke Article 50 in line with the ruling of the European Court of Justice in the Wightman case. The Labour Party at Westminster has failed to indicate that it would support an amendment to revoke Article 50 at this time; Sir Keir Starmer MP said on the Floor of the House that Labour would cross that bridge when it came to it. However, the First Minister of Wales, Mark Drakeford, has indicated that he would support the revocation of Article 50 in the event of no deal.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

That is not the consensus of reputable economists, who all say that we will do worse outside the EU. Some of those who say that we will be fine under no deal are not the vulnerable people who will suffer in a crash-out situation. They do not have millions stashed away.

Clause 2 would enable exit day to be changed by the Government subject only to the negative procedure. We agree with the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that it would be better if the clause was removed from the Bill. We dealt expeditiously with the change from 29 March to 12 April in the statutory instrument, and there is no reason to think that we would not be able to do so again if required. It is a domestic law issue; if we get an extension, it is not a question of whether we are in the EU but a question of necessary housekeeping, and it can be done.

I do not want to go on about a people’s vote, but the noble Lord, Lord Howard, referred to the will of the people. It is time to update our knowledge of the will of the people. Three years on, it is not reasonable or reliable to rely on what a different electorate said in 2016. We hope and expect that the Prime Minister will seek an extension, but she should use that extension to get an update of the verdict of the people.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Will the noble Baroness comment on whether she is satisfied that the drafting of the Bill is watertight and will guarantee that, if it is passed in this way, there will be no way for the Government to escape the implications of their responsibilities under the Bill?

[Baroness Ludford]

It would take a braver woman than I to say that it is watertight. I do not know whether there is anything behind the noble Lord’s question and that he knows something that I do not, so I will rely on the better legal minds which will follow to answer that question. However, I have no reason to think that the drafting has not been carefully looked at.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am delighted to share the gap with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. I will say a few words briefly and I make clear my support for the Bill in general terms. But my concern, which I flagged up in my intervention earlier, is that it fails to cover one key circumstance which could well arise during the coming days.

The Bill as it stands requires House of Commons approval of a new date as specified in Article 50(3) of the treaty but the Bill does not apply if no withdrawal agreement has been ratified under Section 13 of the withdrawal Act, and if no agreement has been reached under Article 50(3) of the treaty to extend the date at which the treaty ceases to apply to the UK. In these circumstances of possibly ongoing negotiations, there is the very real danger of the UK crashing out without a withdrawal agreement. That point has been referred to a number of times in the last few speeches. If that is the wish of the House of Commons, so be it; but the votes of the Commons indicate a strong rejection of such a course, with some 400 MPs voting accordingly. It is therefore my opinion that the Bill should be amended to tidy up that loophole, and it is my hope to present an amendment in Committee to remedy that defect.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) Regulations 2019

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Lords Chamber

We estimate that tens of thousands of amendments to our domestic legislation will be made in the light of EU exit. These include: changes that relate to the sharing of information; reporting requirements placed on businesses and public institutions; and the role of the European Commission in issuing licences and certificates. For example, let us take the statutory instrument relating to the rights of lawyers to practise in the UK, which may be of some interest to noble Lords. If these regulations come into force on 29 March, EU lawyers who are not “registered European lawyers” immediately before exit day are at risk of committing a criminal offence if they continue to provide particular legal services in the UK. Other examples include UK operators being unable to comply with the EU Emissions Trading Scheme and having to surrender their emissions allowances early, and the risk that firms stop trading to avoid legal breaches, given their uncertainty about when new customs, excise and VAT regimes will kick in. There are other examples from across the statute book, but what is clear is that without this instrument there will be significant confusion and uncertainty for businesses and individuals on Friday 29 March.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Can the Minister confirm that, in the event of the vote in the other place on Monday leading to proposals for a different form of agreement, there is nothing in this order preventing another order from coming forward to further amend the date of exit if any changes that arise from the debate in the other place have to be negotiated with the EU?

[Lord Callanan]

No, there is nothing in this instrument that would conflict with that. What they are debating in the other place are effectively changes to the political declaration, not to the legally binding withdrawal agreement.

To avoid a conflict between UK and EU law, it is therefore essential that the instrument being debated today is made before 11 pm on 29 March so that it may come into force ahead of that time. This will align exit day with the new date and time on which the EU treaties cease to apply to the UK in EU and international law.

I am acutely aware of the huge amount of work undertaken by Members of both Houses to scrutinise the nearly 550 statutory instruments brought forward to prepare for exit. If this instrument did not pass, that work would be put under threat. I therefore hope that this House can agree on the necessity of this instrument and approve it so that, with the approval of the other place also, it can come into force and avoid serious confusion and uncertainty for businesses and individuals. I beg to move.

While I am on my feet, I want to take the opportunity to correct something that I said during exchanges with the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, at Oral Questions yesterday. The noble Baroness was in fact not a member of the Blair Government during the time of the Iraq war demonstrations, and indeed did not vote in favour of the Government’s decision to go to war. I have of course apologised to the noble Baroness, and I would like to take this opportunity to correct the record.

Amendment to the Motion

Brexit: No-deal Preparations

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I think we will have to wait to see what happens next week. It remains our view that Parliament should pass the deal because we think it is the best deal available, but we will await the outcome of the Council this weekend before commenting further.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that a Paris political website is reporting that President Macron is not minded to support this deal because of the lack of clarity? That being so, we would be crashing out a week on Friday. Do the Government believe that that is practical, given what they have already said about the need for more time?

[Lord Callanan]

It is difficult for me to comment on rumours on the internet or on Twitter. I would be surprised if that was the case, but any EU member state can veto an extension and if one does, as I have said, the legal position under Article 50, as voted for by Parliament, and under the EU withdrawal Act, voted for by this Parliament, is that we would leave on 29 June.

Brexit: Article 50 Period Extension Procedure

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

No, I cannot confirm that. I can also reassure the noble Baroness that we will not be seeking permission to hold another people’s vote. We have already had a people’s vote, and the people voted to leave. We are still committed to implementing the results of that decision.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, what happens if the European Union turns down an application by the United Kingdom for an extended period of time for Article 50 and it comes back here? Will we not then need primary legislation to avoid a cliff edge on 29 March? Do the Government have a Bill ready for that eventuality?

[Lord Callanan]

We will then have the choice of either passing the meaningful vote or we will leave by the normal operation of the law that this House has voted for.

Further Developments in Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, we are approaching the Brexit end game and are three weeks away from the cliff edge of no deal—a crisis that was totally avoidable. There is a real danger that this week we will again see a round of political games in the House of Commons, with the livelihoods of working people and the future of businesses in Wales and throughout these islands at stake.

My views about Brexit are familiar to the House. I was a committed remain voter, as were a majority in my county of Gwynedd, a majority of Welsh speakers and a majority of those who identify their nationality as Welsh—as shown by Professor Richard Wyn Jones of Cardiff University only this weekend. If they were voting now, as YouGov has shown, the people of Wales would vote to remain by twice the margin by which they voted to leave in 2016. I suspect that is why Brexiters are profoundly opposed to holding a confirmatory referendum. They know full well that, now the people know the deal the Government have negotiated, a majority would reject it out of hand.

People in Wales would now vote to remain for three reasons: they have seen the implications for our manufacturing industry and our farmers; our tourist industry fears losing lucrative overseas visitors and EU nationals working in the hospitality sector; and our universities are shedding jobs and our young people want to retain the right to live, study and work in other European countries.

The Prime Minister’s deal has been overwhelmingly rejected by MPs. She has failed to get any significant improvement to it, and it will probably be defeated again tomorrow evening. If that happens, on Wednesday we must have a clear-cut vote to reject a catastrophic no-deal Brexit, and the Government must undertake unequivocally that, if MPs so vote, they will move an order to withdraw the cliff-edge 29 March deadline, by seeking either a postponement of Article 50 or its withdrawal altogether. There is no earthly point in having an Article 50 application if we have not the foggiest idea of what sort of relationship we want in place of our current EU membership.

As I have previously stated, I was willing to accept that the referendum vote was to leave the EU but without specifying the new relationship Brexit voters wanted with the EU. My colleagues and I were willing to compromise, provided we retained unfettered single market access and continued to have the benefits of the customs union, vital to the Welsh economy. We recognise that some parts of England have problems arising from high levels of inward migration, with a perception—rightly or wrongly—that this undermined local indigenous workers. We are certain that this could have been tackled by negotiating a regionally applied emergency brake, which the EU was willing to consider. There was an agreement available to meet the economic concerns of Wales, which was acceptable to Scotland and which avoided the Northern Ireland border issue. Mrs May drew red lines in the sand far too early, and did not have the flexibility to see that these would have to be adjusted to secure a consensus on Brexit.

Let not the Brexiteers claim that the failure to negotiate an acceptable Brexit is the fault of civil servants or of the wicked Scots or Irish; or a BBC plot, as we heard earlier; or double-dealing by EU negotiators. All the leading roles in the Brexit negotiation have been held by Brexit-backing Cabinet Ministers: by David Davis, who over a two-year period negotiated for just four hours with Monsieur Barnier; by Liam Fox, who said that this was the easiest negotiation ever; by Boris Johnson, who insisted he could have his cake and eat it; and by Dominic Raab, who negotiated the current deal, then resigned in protest over what he had achieved. Let not the Brexiteers blame others for not getting a deal; it is the fault of their own political friends, and let the people fully understand that reality.

Where do we go from here? I suggest three steps. First, if the May package is approved by MPs, it should be put to the people in a confirmatory referendum, and Article 50 should be amended by order to provide the necessary time for a confirmatory vote. The choice between the May package and the status quo should be on the ballot paper. Secondly, if the May package is again rejected, MPs should vote on a no-deal Brexit. If they back no deal, it should be put to a confirmatory vote, between a no-deal Brexit and the status quo. Thirdly, if MPs reject the May deal and a no-deal Brexit, they should then vote to suspend Article 50 for the time needed for cross-party talks to establish a consensus proposal, which may well involve a customs union or a single market deal, or a Norway-type deal, and for that to be put to a confirmatory referendum with the option of remaining in the EU on current terms. Such a process does exactly what the Brexiteers demanded in the referendum: that control be put back in the hands of MPs. A confirmatory vote on the outcome does exactly what the Brexiteers wanted: it gives the people the final word.

If the Government lose their deal and reject all these options, the Prime Minister should surely do the honourable thing and stand down. At that stage, senior people in each party should come together to form a cross-party Government to lead Parliament through the alternatives I have described. Then, after the confirmatory vote, they should call a general election to establish a new Government to take matters forward as sanctioned by the people.

Small though we be, my party, Plaid Cymru, is willing to play a constructive role alongside other parties that recognise the vital importance of the European Union but also accept the need for the people to have the final say. I hope that the people of good will across the House will accept something along these lines as absolute necessary if we are to extricate ourselves from the mess in which we find ourselves today.

Further Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I have not seen any particular demonstration; I do not take an awful lot of notice of them. There seem to be people from all sides shouting at all of us as we walk in. I often wonder why they think that it will make a difference if they shout loudly “Stop Brexit” every five minutes—that somehow we are all going to have a flash of inspiration and suddenly change our minds. The wider point, however, is that the votes of 17.4 million people should be respected. It was the largest democratic vote in the history of this country. We said that we would respect the outcome of the referendum, and this Government are committed to doing that, even though many noble Lords are not so committed. Perhaps we have another one here now.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I am grateful to the Minister, as always, but does he not accept that in neither the referendum nor the general election did any party advocate a no-deal leaving of the European Union? In those circumstances, should this not be ruled out—and if it cannot be ruled out by Parliament, should it not, in line with what is being shouted outside, go back to the people?

[Lord Callanan]

No, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. Neither the two-year time limit set by the notification of withdrawal Act on when the treaty will cease to apply to the UK, nor the exit date placed by Parliament in the EU withdrawal Bill, is dependent on whether we have a deal: they were firm commitments now set in statute at both European and domestic level. Of course we want to leave with a deal, but under domestic legislation we will leave on 29 March unless something changes. I give way.

Brexit: Article 50

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question, but I am afraid that I do not recognise the word “pause”. Pausing Article 50 is not an option. The UK could either revoke Article 50 or request an extension, but I am afraid that there is no remote control in DExEU with a pause button on it.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the suggestion made by Mr Hilary Benn in Brussels yesterday that the logical time to implement the leaving of the European Union is at the end of the implementation period? Should not Article 50 therefore be adjusted to that end?

[Lord Callanan]

I did not hear that suggestion yesterday, but if we did not leave the European Union until the end of 2020 we would not have an implementation period, would we?

Brexit: Parliamentary Approval of the Outcome of Negotiations with the European Union

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, such a brief and effective speech is not unusual of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, with whom I have worked on a number of important issues over the years.

I want to make one or two new points if I can, although that is extremely difficult. Indeed, I am reminded of a great friend of mine who was getting married for the fourth time. As his son, who proposed the toast, rose to his feet, he said, “Here we are again”. The Brexit debate in your Lordships’ House is a bit like that. One can guarantee that whenever two or three noble Lords are gathered, whether in this House or outside, one short phrase will be uttered within a matter of moments: “What a mess”. It is our duty, so far as it can be, to help to steer the country out of this mess.

We are constantly reminded of the 17 million people who voted leave. Of course, they were in the majority: 52% of voters voted to leave the European Union. We must respect that. However, 48% voted in the opposite direction. Two statistics are even more stark and telling: 37% of the electorate voted to leave and 34% voted to stay. Those figures put things into perspective and ought to induce a little humility in us all. I have always studied the English Civil War with great interest, with its fascinating people, great issues and extraordinary events, but I have come to understand it only over the past three years. We all have a duty to try to heal some of the rifts and breaches. My noble friend Lord Dobbs, who is not in his place at the moment, referred to last weekend’s polls saying that a large number of remainers would not wish to marry a leaver, and vice versa. We all know from our circles of friends that this is all too true. I speak as one whose sons married remainers a long time ago and are both happily married, one after 20 years and the other after 25 years. That was absolutely a good thing.

We need to bring our nation together. How can we do that? I suggest two things: first, we will all be looking to the other end of the Corridor tomorrow night. There will be a series of votes. We do not know exactly how many; that depends on Speaker Bercow. I believe that even at this late stage, the Prime Minister should make the decision that the votes are free ones. I was in the other place when we voted to enter the European Community, or the European common market, as it then was. It was the courageous but realistic decision of one of the most accomplished Chief Whips in post-war history, translated by then to Prime Minister, that led to a free vote. I can see the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, smiling and nodding because he remembers that every bit as well as I do. That decision had a profound influence on the result because although only the Government side was officially given a free vote, it had a real effect on the Official Opposition of the day, as I knew from talking to many of them at the time.

The Prime Minister would be performing a great parliamentary and national service if she were to sanction a free vote tomorrow. I also think she would do rather better as a result of that magnanimity than by imposing Whips, which did not work terribly well two weeks ago. Assuming for the moment—I hope correctly—that there is a consensus following tomorrow night and the other place is able to concentrate on one or two not mutually exclusive but complementary avenues towards a settlement of this issue, I hope something else can be done. When my noble friend the Leader of the House was introducing this debate, she referred to cross-party talks and to confidential briefings, so that Members of both Houses could have a clearer insight into the precise details of the negotiations. That is good so far as it goes, but I want to resurrect an idea that I first voiced on the Floor of your Lordships’ House in June 2016, when I said it would be a very good thing if we could have a joint committee—based on the Scottish and Welsh committees—of both Houses, not just one House, on the European issue.

If we are to come together—if those of us who accept that there is to be Brexit, but are proud that we are one of 48% of the electorate and 34% of the nation, are to bring people together—it would be good to have a joint committee of both Houses and all parties meeting to discuss the details. It does not need to prolong the issue indefinitely. I was taken with what my noble friend the Duke of Wellington said about a three-month extension; because of the burden of legislation, that may be necessary. Nevertheless, I was brought up sharp, as I am sure many of your Lordships were, by the speech of my noble friend Lord Balfe. He pointed out some of the practicalities involved, and that the European Parliament that meets on 18 July will be different—perhaps very different—from the Parliament that meets on 18 April. It may have a very different angle on some of the great issues.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I am following the noble Lord with a lot of interest. A free vote could, no doubt, stimulate the possibility of a different consensus— or of getting a consensus at all. Given that there are 14 amendments and four amendments to the amendments, and no certainty as to how they will be selected, there is no guarantee that a consensus that may exist in the other place will translate through to here. In those circumstances, might we not need more time in this Chamber to handle legislation that could come from the Commons? A No. 3 Bill is already mentioned in an amendment. Even if we are constrained to 13 June, we certainly do need more time.

[Lord Cormack]

As I said, I am attracted by some of the propositions put forward by my noble friend the Duke of Wellington. The fact of the matter is that, as my noble friend Lord Balfe has pointed out, there are practical difficulties. What we want is a united Parliament—so far as we can—and a united nation. Whatever motivated those who voted to remain and those who voted to leave, one thing underpinned whatever that individual motive was: at the end of the day, each man and woman who cast a vote surely wanted a prosperous, peaceful Britain in a prosperous, peaceful Europe. We should focus on that sentiment, because it ought to unite us all. If that needs more time so that we can properly fulfil our parliamentary duties, so be it, but let us get on with it.

I hope that we will see some clarity from the other end of the Corridor tomorrow. I hope also that when we next have a debate, it will not be in the rather sterile and unhelpful atmosphere we are forced to debate in today.