Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

I present the sincere apologies of my noble friend Lady Mar. She had very much hoped that this amendment would come up on Tuesday, but alas, she has an engagement that she could not possibly break. So I will inadequately move it on her behalf.

Under the Bill, a person will be deemed to have limited capacity for work if the claimant’s capacity for work is limited by their physical or mental condition and if the limitation is such that it is not reasonable to require the claimant to work. The work capability assessment is designed to assess whether a claimant has limited capacity for work or limited capability for work-related activity, but there is no definition of work either on the face of the Bill or in regulations. A group of charities that includes the MS Society, Parkinson’s UK, Arthritis Care and Forward-ME have indicated that this is a significant omission, and it is one that I certainly agree with my noble friend Lady Mar should be rectified.

Individuals must not only be capable of some very limited work; they must be capable of obtaining realistic and sustainable employment. I am sure that the Minister will acknowledge that capability for work is not a clear-cut issue. Many disabled people fit neither the “completely fit for work” nor the “completely incapable of work” categories. As the Minister knows, the main interest is in those with a fluctuating condition—an area where my noble friend Lady Mar has both experience and, indeed, considerable knowledge. They can unpredictably veer between both categories and, however much they may want to work, this group finds it particularly difficult to obtain and retain sustainable employment.

My noble friend and I strongly support the principle that all those who are able to work should be supported through the work-related activity group in ESA, which is designed particularly to identify those who have a limited capacity for work. However, those who face significant barriers to returning to the workplace require extra time and support to move back into the work environment. The WRAG is a very important provision for those with fluctuating conditions, as it asks them to undertake work-related activities that are personalised and appropriate to their needs and abilities. However, the group believes that the current work capability assessment sets too high a bar for the test of limited capability for work—the test that admits people to the WRAG. The test fails to take into account the reality of the claimant’s abilities not just to take on work but to retain and manage unsupported sustainable employment.

The Australian Social Security Act 1991 and the Australian assessment of work-related impairment for disability support pension criteria supply a sensible definition of what could be meant by the ability to carry out meaningful work. Slightly amended for the UK, as is proposed in my amendment, this could provide an important aid in determining whether a claimant actually has limited capability for work. Broadly, the amendment would specify that, in order to be capable of work, the claimant should be able to: work for at least 15 or 16 hours each week in meaningful work that pays at least the national minimum wage; reliably perform their work on a sustainable basis without requiring excessive leave or absences—the Australian system takes this to be at least 26 weeks; and, lastly, work in unsupported employment without requiring excessive support to perform their work. I beg to move.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am very pleased to support this amendment. One is very aware of the tremendous work that the noble Countess, Lady Mar, has undertaken in this area and of her expertise. There is no doubt that the fluctuating condition of many people with disabilities can be a difficult factor from whichever end you look at it: from the point of view of the disabled person, who may want to work but is uncertain whether they can carry out the work, or from the point of view of the state and the way in which these regulations apply to such people.

The one element in this amendment that I am not entirely certain about is the question of “unsupported employment”. There are times when, if a disabled person is given adequate support, they can be in full-time meaningful work on a continuous basis. I would not want this amendment to undermine that dimension, which is very important.

Turning to new subsection (6B) proposed by the amendment, can the Minister comment on paragraph (b), which refers to work,

“which exists in the United Kingdom”?

This raises some interesting questions. Is it in the Government’s mind that there might be work outside the United Kingdom, the availability of which could, if it were not taken up, lead to people being debarred from their benefits? One thinks of people living in Dover: an hour’s journey puts them into the French catchment area. If one lives in Holyhead, if the fast boats are running one could quickly be in Dublin—presuming that there is any work in Dublin these days. The Government’s intention in this matter certainly needs to be probed. If paragraph (b) is necessary, I would be interested to know what the Government’s explanation is.

[Baroness Wilkins]

My Lords, I strongly support this amendment in the hope that it will go some way to meeting the fears of the thousands of disabled people facing their work capacity assessment, especially those who have a fluctuating condition such as multiple sclerosis or an ill understood condition such as ME. Members of the Committee will have been inundated with letters from people who have been given every reason to mistrust the assessment process as carried out by Atos, and I know that the Minister has been made very aware of the stress and anxiety this is causing.

Broadly, this amendment sets out that, in order to be deemed capable of work, the claimant should be able to work for at least 16 hours each week in meaningful work that pays the national minimum wage or above and, most importantly, that they can reliably perform their work on a sustainable basis of at least 26 weeks without requiring excessive leave or absences. This would do much to rectify the current situation. What happens now is that at the end of an Atos report on a claimant, which goes to DWP decision-makers following the completion of the work capability assessment, there is usually a prognosis which says, “This claimant should be able to return to work within x months”. However, the WCA is not currently designed to offer any concrete evidence of a person’s realistic capability to find employment. The content of the WCA is designed purely to assess a person’s physical and mental functionality, not their ability to find employment, how long this may take or what support an individual may need to do so in the light of the barriers to work that their condition presents.

The WCA test focuses largely on a claimant’s typical day. Yet there is no such thing as a typical day for someone with a fluctuating condition. For example, a woman with MS in her early 30s told the MS Society that on one day she may feel well enough to participate in voluntary work and have a busy and active lifestyle, yet during a recent lapse she was rendered completely blind for a period of weeks and found that on many days she was unable to get out of bed due to disabling fatigue.

The typical-day history taken in the WCA refers to a typical day out of work. However, a typical day out of work for someone with a long-term condition could be very different from a typical day if they had to travel and complete a full day’s work. One person with multiple sclerosis told the society, “Nothing done in the interview related to my ability or my lack of ability to work. I answered the questions as honestly as I was able, but was not able to stress the fluctuating nature of the symptoms, i.e. yes, I can read, but not for more than a few minutes and then I have to rest”. Another person said, “They have no idea what day with MS is like. They do not know how work would go if one day you can walk but the next you cannot, if one day you pee yourself continually and the next you are okay. Who would employ me? I am constantly fatigued, yet of course the WCA found me fit for work.”

I do not doubt the Minister’s sincerity when he says that his whole motivation is to support and enable people to take their place in the world of work, but how can he hope for this to succeed when the assessment for determining eligibility for universal credit is based on such a flawed, unjust and mistrusted system? As we have heard too many times, 40 per cent of those wrongly found fit for work win on appeal of the decision, and in some areas I am told that the figure increases to 90 per cent if people are represented at tribunal.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, this is an interesting and challenging amendment and the debate has been deeply concerning. We have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, that people are terrified and scared about facilities not being available; we have heard from my noble friend Lady Wilkins about the mistrust of the WCA and the profound mistrust of Atos and some challenging questions about how they are regulated; and we have heard from my noble friend Lord McAvoy and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, about fluctuating conditions.

I understand that the system works at present by seeking to establish if someone has limited capability for work, and that this is determined by a range of descriptors which seek to establish how someone’s physical and mental health affects their functioning. Someone not reaching a sufficient points total would not be classified as having limited capability for work and would therefore—in essence by default—be deemed fit for work. The point was pressed that the assessment does not look at whether someone having not been deemed to have limited capability for work is therefore fit for work in any practical or coherent way. Actually, that gives food for thought. Somebody who has been deemed fit for work would seem to claim JSA and be subject to relevant conditionality and in the world of universal credit be subject to all work-related requirements. There have been ongoing debates about how appropriate the descriptors are and, perhaps more fundamentally, how they are applied in practice. We have certainly heard some of that today. This is of particular interest to us, because we were in government when the system was introduced; I remember all the policy staff and all the work that was done to introduce the ESA and the WCA. Given the fact that it is not working as it should, maybe the judgment was that it is not capable of working in any event, and that is of some concern.

The Harrington review has published its first considerations and the recommendations have been accepted. It is understood that the second review was completed in July and is still under consideration. Perhaps the Minister can give us an update.

A key question that the amendment poses is whether the WCA, properly applied, would mean that the outcome sought by Amendment 55C would inevitably follow, assuming that it was the outcome that was wanted. I think probably not. On making a judgment about somebody having limited capability for work, there is a prognosis also about how long they would remain so assessed—that is to say, a determination about when they would be fit for work. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, again made this point. When making that determination, to what extent would those judgments reflect the criteria that this amendment seeks to set out? Again, I suspect not—but perhaps the Minister can help us by telling us the criteria applied when someone is making a judgment after a while whether somebody is fit to go back to work and fit for the JSA regime or the full work conditionality. Is it just the absence of failure of work-related activities requirements, or is it something more positive in trying to see what they are actually capable of and what the definition is of work? I am not being very clear on this issue, but my concern when I think about it—and I had not thought about it in this way before—is that the WCA assessment puts somebody in a category. If they fail, although fail is perhaps not the right term, they go by default into a category that assumes they are fit for work. Should that judgment inevitably follow from that process?

There is a sense of cliff edge about the system. On one side of it, there are full conditionalities and harsher sanctions, and the full work-related requirements; on the other side, there is lesser conditionality and requirements only in respect of work-related activity, no prospect of higher level sanctions and higher benefit levels. Of course, all of this rests on the judgment under the WCA, subject to reconsideration and appeals and so on. So much hinges not only on the descriptors and how they are set out and whether they are appropriate but on how they are applied. Universal credit does not particularly smooth that particular cliff edge, although it deals with other cliff edges about going in and out of work. But with regard to the analysis and judgment of where people sit in the categories, it does not particularly help. A lot of this is to do with the support that people should have.

[Lord Wigley]

I invite the noble Lord to comment on the relevance of assistance in work. If people are available to help someone who is disabled to undertake their work, it is possible for them to fulfil some of these requirements. If that person is not available, it is the failure of the state to make that person available that is creating the handicap for the person who is disabled. In applying the social definition, there could not be a clearer example than that.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. He is absolutely right about that. I imagine that the Minister will reply that this is too narrow a definition of work but I do not want to anticipate what he wants to say. The more I think about it—this is not a formal Front-Bench view—the more I believe that we ought to be thinking about smoothing the path so that we do not have that cliff-edge, as we are doing away with cliff-edges for in-work and out-of-work benefits. Is there not something that we could do to create more of a continuum, so that these very difficult judgments would not have to be made?

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Given those assurances, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Wigley]

May I press the Minister a little further on the position of people who might be capable of work if they have assistance? To the extent that the assistance is not available, would that be a definitive reason why they should not lose their benefits?

[Lord Freud]

It is clear that a lot of changes are going on and I am not surprised that people do not understand them all. One of the things that we have done means that claimants in the support group can volunteer to go straight on to the work programme, where there is substantial help for them to get back into work. That is one way in which we are helping people who may find themselves in the worst possible position to get into work. We have made a very straightforward mechanism.

I pick up the point of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. We are instigating a process whereby people, if they are in the WRAG with a prognosis, are asked by work providers whether they would like to come in at any point—I think at six months. They are then encouraged to volunteer for the process early. They do not move from the WRAG to JSA until there is another WCA. We are talking about a process here; it is a dial for these people, as the noble Lord said, but it has to be understood in the context of how the work programme operates as well as how the WCA operates.

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Moved by

[Lord Wigley]

55D: After Clause 39, insert the following new Clause—
“Effect on devolved administrations
Where the implementation of any sections in Part 1 of this Act may have an implication for other services which are the responsibilities of devolved administrations in Wales and Scotland, there shall not be a commencement of such sections until the impact of such provisions has been discussed with the relevant ministers of the devolved administrations.”

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, the Minister will not be entirely surprised that I raise the question of the possible knock-on effects of the Bill on the services provided by the devolved Administrations. It could no doubt be argued that there is an equivalent or parallel question arising with regard to the consequences for local government in England, which I shall touch on a little later.

I tabled the amendment at this stage, towards the end of Part 1, because several of its provisions relating to disability, housing benefit and children have an impact on matters that are partly or wholly devolved. I could well have raised this question in different parts of the Bill but I shall content myself with just raising the issues at this stage if that is acceptable.

I remind the Committee that for both Wales and Scotland housing, social services, education, children’s policy and local government are totally devolved. It is the responsibility of the Government of Wales to provide the finance needed for those responsibilities within Wales. On numerous occasions during the past four weeks we have heard the Minister repeatedly resort to the discretionary payments and provisions that may be made by local authorities in some circumstances to make up for any cash or support losses suffered by vulnerable individuals who may lose out under the changes in this legislation. Someone has to pay for that at the end of the day, whether it is for emergency housing, social workers’ time or effort, or for the care bill needed for children or whoever.

The amendment is a modest one. It calls merely for the impact of legislation on devolved services to be discussed with relevant Ministers in Cardiff and Edinburgh before the provisions of Part 1 are implemented, which presumes that an impact assessment would have been made to enable that discussion to take place. The Minister may say that we are already having a dialogue with the devolved Administrations on these matters—I see him nodding, surprise, surprise—but I can assure him that Ministers in Wales have not so far received responses to their concerns that have put their minds at rest on a number of these points. For example, Welsh Ministers have expressed concern that changes to DLA rules will have a seriously greater effect in Wales than in England. There are 126,000 DLA claimants of working age in Wales, compared to less than 1.5 million in England. Wales has 5 per cent of the relevant population but 8 per cent of the claimants.

Welsh Ministers have expressed in writing, and made representations to Her Majesty’s Government about, their fear that these legislative changes will make disproportionate additional demands on social services departments in Wales and on the budgets of those service providers, and have disproportionate consequences for devolved budgets.

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[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I am also looking forward to reading the Low review but I have been listening with great intensity to everything said in this Committee today. Social security is a reserved matter, although it will clearly have a limited, tangential impact on areas of policy where the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament have competence, the obvious examples being childcare and housing. It does not, however, include DLA, which was one of the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley.

I can reassure noble Lords that we have held, and will continue to hold, regular discussions with Ministers in the devolved Administrations and their officials. We are committed to the smooth and successful implementation of universal credit. To achieve that we are working closely with devolved Administrations and relevant local authorities to help them identify and address the impact that the introduction of universal credit will have on any services that they deliver. We are doing so in line with devolution guidance. My department is continuing to work through the detailed design aspects of universal credit which will be covered in regulations. Throughout this process they will continue to have discussions with the devolved Administrations, as appropriate, on these provisions and on others in the Bill. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, that whatever I am saying here is relevant to the whole of the Bill.

I am concerned that this amendment would introduce a new and unnecessary level of bureaucracy. My noble friend Lord German hinted at some of the problems that it would result in. In practice, that would hamper progress and potentially delay the introduction of universal credit, let alone other aspects of the Bill.

[Lord Wigley]

Can the Minister clarify how that bureaucracy comes about?

[Lord Freud]

The issue is that if there is an additional, formal process, requiring a formal level of discussion at a formal time before you can clear particular things, that is another element of delay to negotiate when we already have a huge number. We are on a very precise plan of implementation here. Those noble Lords who were able to see the presentation of how we are introducing and implementing universal credit will be aware of the importance of a smooth process. I am concerned to avoid delays due to artificial elements of bureaucracy. Our ongoing discussions with devolved Administrations are the best way to address any impact on devolved services and achieve the successful implementation of these reforms. With that reassurance, I beg the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Wigley]

I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I am intrigued by the way in which this bureaucracy is going to be such an imposition. If there are meaningful, ongoing discussions with the Administrations in Cardiff and Edinburgh involving a two-way flow of discussion, after which there is either a meeting of minds or not, that is not an extra level of bureaucracy. If that is not happening and it would be an extra imposition, I would be very concerned because the reassurances we are getting would be insufficient.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, let me make myself utterly clear. If we had a statutory duty to discuss and if a devolved Minister were, for any particular reason, unavailable—my noble friend Lord German made my point here—our progress could be slowed. That unavailability could, potentially, be deliberate. We do not want another problem to negotiate when we already have a formal set of agreements on how we relate to devolved Administrations. We are sticking to those and we are talking regularly and informally on how best to get this through.

[Lord Wigley]

I note what the Minister says. He suggests that there could be some deliberate refusal to engage in such discussions. Does he seriously have examples of that happening that he could cite to the Committee, or is it something that he is imagining?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I could not reveal any confidences about the discussions that I have had with Ministers in devolved Administrations. Therefore, regrettably, I cannot answer that question.

[Lord Wigley]

I understand where the Minister is coming from. However, the point is that there may well be a difference of opinion between what is perceived as good public policy in Cardiff and Edinburgh and what is perceived as good public policy in his department under his Government. After all, they are different Governments of different political complexion, which will have different priorities. That is true of the current Government in Cardiff and the coalition Government who were there before them. The whole point is that we need some understanding on this.

[Lord McAvoy]

Is the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, perhaps interested in asking the Minister whether these confidential discussions are subject to freedom of information requests?

[Lord Wigley]

That would indeed be interesting. No doubt we will hear if that is the case. However, on this amendment I was also pressing for assurances—it may well be that the Minister was giving them in the words that he used—with regard to the application of the concordat. I assume from his words that the concordat—I quoted from paragraph 17—is fully applicable and will be in the context of these negotiations; and, likewise, that the assurances of “no surprises” that have been given to local government will also be applied. If there are any direct relationships between his department and local government in Wales, which there could be in the context of housing benefit because there is a direct relationship, will those assurances apply equally? I am sure that the Minister is about to nod that that is his understanding, but I should be grateful if that could be put in writing.

[Lord Freud]

I repeat my point: we are absolutely moving in line with devolution guidance. We have no intention of doing anything other than that.

[Lord Wigley]

I have probably got as far as I will get by rattling around this set of bones but this is clearly a matter of some concern. We will not know for certain until the Bill becomes an Act and how this works is turned into reality. However, I very much hope that if, in that reality, it transpires that significant additional costs are landing on local government in England or the devolved Administrations in Wales and Scotland, the Government will pick up the bill in the spirit of the concordat and the other devices that they have if it is their actions that are causing those additional costs. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 55D withdrawn.