Fire Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Shipley

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 29th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I strongly support these amendments and the requirement for a regular mandatory check on electrical appliances, broadly for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, explained to the Committee. I pay tribute to the campaign group Electrical Safety First, which has given me some information on the issue. As the noble Lord has said, the fires at Lakanal House in Camberwell, Shepherd’s Court and Grenfell were all triggered by faulty electrical appliances. Whether it was dangerous cladding, compromised firewalling or poor evacuation procedures that led to multiple deaths, electrical appliances triggered the fires in the first place. Indeed, more than half of the fires in dwellings in this country are related to electrical appliances.

These amendments would require regular checking of the standards and appropriate use of white goods in all multi-occupied properties. There are already mandatory gas checks on most such buildings for gas supply and the correct use of gas appliances. That is largely because people and regulators have long recognised that gas is dangerous. Yet, these days, electricity is the greater hazard. In multi-occupied multi-storey buildings, if there is a problem in one flat or unit, that is a potentially lethal problem for everyone in that structure.

We should explain that the amendment to regulations would in no way reduce the central responsibility and liability of the manufacturers to ensure the safety of their products; nor should any responsibility be taken away from users to follow instructions and not use equipment irresponsibly or inappropriately. However, the continued use of recalled products, dangerous wiring arrangements, damaged circuits and inappropriate placement of white goods requires regular inspection. There is also a requirement on landlords, tenants and leaseholders to have knowledge of that inspection to help reduce hazards. Failure on their part to facilitate inspection or to take action in the light of that inspection will rest primarily with the owner and manager of the building. That is how it should be. I strongly support these amendments.

[Lord Shipley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, first, I remind the Committee that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I support both amendments in this group. My noble friend Lord Tope, who is a signatory to Amendment 1, is unable to take part today but I know that he is looking forward to debating the issues raised in both amendments when we reach Report.

As we have heard, evidence from Electrical Safety First tells us that electrical faults cause more than 14,000 home fires a year. That is almost half of all accidental house fires. Logically, therefore, the more electrical appliances are checked, the lower the risk will be of a fire breaking out and then spreading to other people’s properties. This is not just a matter of building safety but about preventing fires breaking out in the first place.

I suggest that the general public have a right to expect that Governments of all persuasions should be willing to legislate to ensure high standards of regulation to improve public safety. Those who live in blocks of flats have a right to expect that they are living in a safe environment and that the owner of their block has undertaken the necessary safety checks within it, in this case to electrical appliances within that block.

The proposal in this group of amendments is for checks at least every five years. That is justified. If I drive a car that is over three years old, I have to prove every year that it is roadworthy by having an MOT check. This is to protect other road users, not just me and my vehicle. The same principle should apply in shared buildings where electrical appliances that are a fire risk could cause damage to other properties and to their occupants in that shared building.

I therefore conclude that the fire safety order should apply to electrical appliances where a building contains two or more sets of domestic premises. That seems reasonable. For high-rise residential buildings, in particular, it is important that a responsible person should keep a register of white goods in the building for which they are responsible, that they ensure that white goods are registered with the manufacturer for recall, should that be necessary, and that safety checks are conducted at least every five years.

Any privately rented home in a block of flats of mixed tenure will now be subject to electrical safety checks. It seems odd that in a high-rise block of mixed tenure, only the privately rented properties will be subject to the 2020 regulations. I would be grateful for the Minister’s explanation as to why that is, and to know whether the Government will act now to address that anomaly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I have added my name to most of the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Kennedy. He has explained the objectives of the proposed new clauses extremely well, so I will not add much to that. I particularly emphasise the need for the accreditation and professionalisation of fire assessors to instil some degree of confidence in the advice which owners, tenants and leaseholders receive. On the definition of responsible persons, this takes us some way forward to adopting my noble friend’s amendment. It is also important that the Government ensure that the terminology used here is the same as that in the draft building safety Bill, and in existing regulations, so that we avoid any confusion or ambiguity over who is responsible for what.

I did not sign up to Amendment 9 in the name of my noble friend Lord Kennedy. That is not because I disagree with the wording on the Marshalled List. I support that but it could be misinterpreted. My noble friend has already referred to the concerns in this respect, and the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, referred to them in an earlier debate. This amendment deals with waking watch and the whole concept is that if a building has been designated as a fire risk, we need constant checking on the safety of that building. But many tenants and leaseholders find that the waking watch arrangements are used as a reason to delay improving the basic physical safety of the building. Moreover, they are faced with substantial costs on the operation of a waking watch. I do not intend to undermine my noble friend’s Amendment 9. However, it needs to be put in a context where the cost does not fall on the tenants and leaseholders but on those who are genuinely responsible for the lack of safety in the building. Waking watch is not an alternative to the amelioration of that physical condition.

[Lord Shipley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I strongly support all the amendments in this group because they would help improve standards immensely. My name is attached to Amendments 15 and 17.

The purpose of Amendment 15, which is also in the name of my noble friend Lady Pinnock, is to secure an up-to-date public register of fire risk assessments, to be kept and made available on request. I see this proposal as a matter of significant public interest and of vital concern to those who live in a shared accommodation block, particularly one which is high-rise. As my noble friend Lord Stunell pointed out, they have a right to know that their building is safe. I raised this problem previously when I discovered that such publication can be excluded under freedom of information legislation. Surely all those who live in tower blocks have a right to know about the fire safety of their block, so I wonder what further assessment the Government may have made of the rights of those who live in such blocks to further information.

On Amendment 17, there is a clear case for a prohibition on freeholders of a building passing remediation costs for their building on to leaseholders or tenants. We know that following Grenfell, as we have heard, so many leaseholders have found themselves being asked to meet huge remediation costs. In addition, many owners cannot sell their homes because they have not got—and cannot get—the right certification on the construction of their building. Preventing the provisions of the Bill, when it becomes an Act, leading to further costs for leaseholders or tenants must be an absolute priority for government.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Shipley

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty]

I am not sure of the procedure at this point, so I will not reply now.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I contributed to the Bill in Committee but that was all on the Flood Re insurance aspects and did not relate to this part. However, in listening to the debate on sustainability and resilience, I was struck by the points about whether the Bill was worded strongly enough as regards the importance of sustainability. I recall the reply in Committee from the Minister, my noble friend Lord De Mauley, when he made it absolutely clear that Ofwat has had a stand-alone statutory duty to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development since 2005. In response to what the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has said, I would like to turn it a different way round and say that this is actually about the outcome produced, and whether sustainability is strongly enough part of the Bill.

I pay tribute to the work of my noble friend Lord Redesdale in this respect. With this amendment, the Government have delivered the outcome that we want. The question is whether Amendments 61, 62 and 63 are sufficient to meet the arguments that were put forward in favour of the word “sustainability” at that stage. I think that these amendments are sufficient, and I have two reasons for concluding so. First, the resilience duty now requires the promotion of increased efficiency in the use of water. Additionally, the amendments made on Report in the House of Commons mean that the resilience duty includes a requirement that the sustainable management of water resources should be promoted as part of that resilience duty. In practice, therefore, the sustainability test is now being met.

Secondly, the Blueprint for Water coalition of environmental groups, which includes the World Wide Fund for Nature, the RSPB and the Wildlife Trusts, makes it clear in its comprehensive briefing for this Report stage that the Bill satisfies its previous call for Ofwat’s secondary sustainable development duty to be raised to a primary duty. I find its support for the Government’s position reassuring in this respect.

With the other proposals relating to abstraction reform, together with Ofwat’s existing trading and procurement code, which includes a sustainability clause, I think that the Government have made their case and should therefore be supported. Again, I pay tribute to the role of my noble friend Lord Redesdale and his advocacy on this issue. His efforts in Committee have produced the amendment that we are debating today.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes)]

My Lords, perhaps I can be of assistance to the House, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. Paragraph 8.137 of the Companion to the Standing Orders says quite clearly:

“On report no member may speak more than once to an amendment, except the mover of the amendment in reply or a member who has obtained leave of the House, which may only be granted to … a member to explain himself in some material point of his speech”.

My interpretation is that provided the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, gets the leave of the House, he is able to answer—if he so wishes, of course.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Shipley

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendment 92. Amendment 91 would insert a new clause to give power to the Secretary of State to lay down in regulations the standards that private sector letting agents and management agents must adhere to. This would enable the Secretary of State, at a later date, to lay down statutory guidance to regulate private letting agents. A similar provision was passed recently in Scottish legislation. As there are currently no regulations governing the conduct of letting agents, such a clause would act as a starting point for a debate on what sort of regulation would be effective.

Both tenant and landlord organisations have long reported problems with private sector letting agencies, including the charging of exorbitant fees, failure to enforce basic health and safety standards in properties and inadequate client money protection provisions. The situation is such that the largest professional body for letting agents in the UK, the Association of Residential Letting Agents, which has been at the forefront of self-regulation, is strongly in favour of statutory regulation to tackle problems in the industry. This amendment is also supported by the British Property Federation, the National Landlords Association and housing charities.

The amendment would allow the Secretary of State, following further consideration and consultation, to specify new standards for the regulation of letting agents. It does not require guidance to be drafted immediately but ensures that the possibility is open, and will act as a starting point for a debate on how best to regulate the sector. There would of course have to be wide consultation on the scope and nature of any regulations, but the Bill is likely to be the best legislative opportunity to make progress on this issue for a significant period.

Around 60 per cent of private landlords use one of the estimated 8,000 letting agents or managing agents in England. However, half these agents do not belong to any of the professional trade bodies. Research has shown that tenant satisfaction levels are lower—reportedly 71 per cent—where the property is managed by an agent than where it is managed by a landlord directly, reported to be 81 per cent. In an online survey of 1,289 tenants who visited the Citizens Advice website over a three-month period, it was found that 73 per cent were dissatisfied with the service provided by their letting agent. Less than one-third of agents willingly provided full written details of their charges to CAB workers when asked. There are particular concerns in relation to letting and management agents having a lack of expertise and firms not having professional indemnity insurance or client money protection.

The current voluntary approach has significant drawbacks, with the worst agents being the least likely to submit to a voluntary scheme. Voluntary regulation, covering only an estimated half of all agents, is unfair, as it creates extra hurdles for the more reputable agents while not doing so for those who are most likely to be responsible for problems. The Association of Residential Letting Agents believes that the quickest and most effective method to eliminate unprofessional, unqualified and unethical agents from the rental market is through statutory provision via this amendment.

There is currently no mandatory licensing scheme for letting agents or landlords in the UK despite 95 per cent of consumers believing that there should be. The Association of Residential Letting Agents introduced a licensing scheme for its members in May 2009 which ensures the highest standards of service for those who use members of the scheme. Its introduction was supported by a wide variety of organisations including Trading Standards, Shelter and the National Landlords Association. The scheme delivers higher standards of service for tenants by ensuring that licensed members abide by the relevant codes of practice and rules of conduct, hold recognised qualifications and are covered by professional indemnity insurance, a recognised client money protection scheme and an independent redress scheme. The licensing scheme has many other facets to improve service, such as ensuring that all members undertake at least 12 hours of continuing professional development each year.

I do not regard this amendment as contentious. It seems eminently sensible because it is simply providing a means whereby statutory legislation can be introduced by giving the power to the Secretary of State to do so at some future date.

Finally, Amendment 92 relates to a slightly different issue but it extends the courts’ discretion to postpone or suspend the execution of possession orders in cases where there is no specific statutory power to do so. The problem is that Section 89 of the Housing Act 1980 severely restricted the power of the courts to suspend the effect of possession orders in cases where the courts had no specific statutory power to do so but had, to that point, relied on their general powers. The effect of this was that no possession order could ordinarily be suspended for longer than two weeks; in cases of exceptional hardship the court could suspend further, but only up to six weeks. The effect of this has been that an evicted tenant and his or her family are only permitted two, or at most six, weeks to find alternative accommodation whatever the circumstances of the family as regards, for example, size, medical or location needs or education.

Even if those restrictions were realistic in 1980, they are now out of date, in view of the continued pressure on the availability of affordable housing, the recent reductions in the provision of housing benefit and the increase in the types of tenancy to which Section 89 applies since it was enacted. To find alternative accommodation within the timescale provided by the 1980 Act is virtually impossible, and has been for some time, yet the courts have no power to order more. This amendment would simply enable a court to exercise greater flexibility in considering the suspension of possession orders and to allow the appropriate length in the circumstances of the case, balancing the hardship to the tenant caused by the eviction against the landlord’s need for the property. I beg to move.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I support Amendment 92. Those of us who are looking at the housing market recognise that the role of the private rented sector is likely to increase and that there are serious problems with both quality and delivery within that sector. I am sorry I had to be out of the Chamber when Amendment 85, on the accreditation of private landlords, was debated. However, the vast majority of tenants and potential tenants will come across the property via an agent, and, as the noble Lord says, their actual arrangements for rent, repair and general customer service will be with the agent, not directly with the individual landlord. In those circumstances, the role of lettings agencies and management agencies is vital. Therefore, it is important that this Bill provides for some ability to set standards for them. As the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said, it is very important that the professional trade bodies in that area—the National Landlords Association and the British Property Federation—support a degree of statutory intervention on this front for the very clear reason that good landlords, effective landlords and landlords concerned with service for tenants can get undercut by bodies that do not observe decent standards.

The amendment is permissive on the Minister and clearly will be subject to some assessment of need. However, as the noble Lord says, if we do not provide for some ability to issue regulations in this area, then a whole sector of housing provision will remain unregulated, with the better agents in that area being undermined by the worse. I hope that the Minister can at least give a positive response to this amendment.