Brexit: Protection for Workers

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Henley

Thursday 7th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I have been in this House long enough to see what goes on. I think I have been in this House slightly longer than the noble Lord was in another place. Conservative Governments have brought forward a great many improvements. My right honourable friend listed those in his Statement earlier, starting with the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, brought in under John Major’s Government by my noble friend Lord Hague. Look at the national living wage. Conservative Governments have done a great deal. My right honourable friend went back as far as the Shaftesbury Acts two centuries ago. We have made improvements and will continue to do so, but we will make sure we get the right balance.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend talked about history, as has the Minister, but we also need to consider what the future will look like. Can the Minister understand why there are some suspicions in the labour movement and the trade unions about the intentions of a post-Brexit Conservative Government when so many of his colleagues have held out the vision of a low-regulation, low-cost economy competing with employers across Europe and the world? The whole point about European legislation is that employers cannot undercut each other on workers’ rights, yet the Minister himself briefly made a slip when he referred to the relative situation in France against that in Britain. That shows the psychology of some elements of his party in how they see the future. I should like an assurance that that is not likely to be the official policy of a Conservative post-Brexit Government, if such there be.

[Lord Henley]

Would the noble Lord like unemployment levels at the same rate we see in France, or would he prefer to see employment and unemployment levels at the rates we have in this country, where we also have the right sort of protections for workers but do not have inappropriate protections that prevent people getting jobs?

Energy Policy

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Henley

Monday 25th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I cannot assist my noble friend with announcements about Sizewell C—but, as always, I shall say “in due course”. My noble friend is right to point out the costs of nuclear; that decision has been made. What we are talking about here is a potential decision to generate electricity at three times that price at a time when the cost of, for example, offshore wind had come down so dramatically. That is why we had to make that decision, and why we have made it. It is possible that for other nuclear power, in due course, if more work is done in the world of modular nuclear power stations, the cost could come down. But we have made the decision on Hinkley, and have now made the decision not to go ahead with Swansea—but we will continue to look at all possible sources of energy to make sure that we have green energy and secure energy.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, like others, I find this decision depressing. On the other hand, I recognise the Minister’s dilemma. The figures that he quotes at us appear irrefutable, even though they are somewhat at odds with those from Charles Hendry’s report and any long-term view. This seems a similar decision to the closure of the carbon and capture elements in Peterhead. In effect, we are not looking over a long enough timescale.

I have two quick technical questions and two strategic ones. First, were the costs clearly incorporating the benefit of having attached to this not only tidal power but some offshore wind power, which was part of the project, and—as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said—a significant amount of storage of electricity, which would be of great benefit to future lagoon technology, were this to be proven?

Secondly, can the Minister really envisage a situation whereby, in 50 years’ time, these islands will not in part be powered by wave and tidal energy? We have a huge natural advantage and a huge relative benefit around our shores of having power that is predictable, not intermittent, as other technologies are not. We would be a world leader in this, and abandoning this project makes it more difficult. However, I take some comfort from the Minister’s reference to other projects. Which other projects does he have in mind and how soon, given the delay on this decision, can we get a decision on some of those? Are the Government still committed to looking at wave and tidal technology as part of our long-term future?

[Lord Henley]

I correct the noble Lord on just one thing. He said that tidal power was predictable—and I agree with him that it is predictable—but it is also intermittent because, as he knows, tides go up and down and there are slack periods as well. The intermittency is variable, so it is predictably intermittent, which makes for complications—but it also leads on to the noble Lord’s point about storage.

Obviously, with all these sorts of renewables, storage becomes very important, and developments on that front will change over the coming years. The noble Lord asked us all to look 50 years in the future. First, most of us will not be around in 50 years—but we can all remember 50 years back, and we all know just how much things have changed over those past 50 years. The point that I am making is that it would be wrong for me to predict what might happen over the next 50 years.

I want to make it clear that we have not ruled out tidal power. As the noble Lord says, we have some of the best tides in the world. I am reminded of those lines that noble Lords will remember from “Lochinvar”:

“Love swells like the Solway, but ebbs like its tide”.


It comes in very fast in those areas and goes out very fast. The variation in the Bristol channel is as good as anything that you will get anywhere else in the world, except I think in the St Lawrence estuary.

Much can be done, and we should certainly look at those in future. I cannot say which might then turn out to be suitable. Some of the other tidal power projects being looked at here could offer electricity somewhat cheaper—but only somewhat—than the Swansea bay, because the Swansea bay one is relatively small. We should look at any project on its merits. But I think that the noble Lord, who is as diligent as I am about the view that we must preserve taxpayers’ and consumers’ money, would not want to go ahead with a project that was going to cost three times as much as electricity from, say, Hinkley Point.

Domestic Gas and Electricity (Tariff Cap) Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Henley

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 11th June 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise for not being here for the previous debate. Clearly, there are crossovers between that group of amendments and this one. I declare an interest in that I have been appointed chair of the commission on vulnerability set up by Energy UK. We have not started our work yet so I am not pre-empting that and I am not speaking on behalf of the commission. But it has caused me to look at the complexity of the vulnerability of consumers in this sector and how that is compounded by the difficulty that people experience in getting around to switching, despite the emphasis on switching in public policy, and the attempts—legislatively and by the regulator—to encourage people to find a better tariff.

The fact of the matter is that while we have had a significant increase in the competition at one end, the competition between and within companies to attract and retain vulnerable groups in their own best interests has not ended up being very effective. I am sure we all know of groups in our own community which have had grave difficulty, either by being stuck on a tariff or by attempting to change their tariff, with consequences that were detrimental or at least incomprehensible to them. That remains the position.

When we are talking about vulnerability, we need to recognise that not all of that is obvious. It is not just the elderly, or physically or mentally disabled people, who are vulnerable. It is also people on small incomes, particularly those on irregular incomes, who fail to pay at some point and suddenly become vulnerable because they build up debt and get into the company’s bad books.

The industry is well aware of all this. Indeed, in some ways, it has attempted to address it, but it has not come through. This top-down approach of a cap, which may be necessary at the moment to drive future competition will not help the differential impact on the more vulnerable members of our society. If it does, it will do so inadvertently. That is the not the central theme of this approach. The issue has to be explained to people in a way that does not make life more complicated and that will enable them, at least to a degree, to be more proactive in switching to a lower tariff.

Communication between energy companies and their consumers is therefore vital. The increase in competition through the number of companies in the field has not necessarily led to a dramatic change in this situation. It is important that not just the big six but all companies in the sector take steps to ensure that they take this into account after we have legislated for the cap to address the interests of different groups of vulnerable people. We will return to this issue—amendments have been tabled on it at various points in the Bill—but unless we somehow crack this and make it clear that the cap must address issues of vulnerability at the same time, the social problems that are the outcome of the current dysfunctional and inadequately competitive market will simply continue.

For a number of these groups of people, although I am in favour of smart meters, I do not think that the smart meters rollout will occur in the timescale to match what is in the Bill for a cap. Also, many of those groups will be the last to benefit easily from the information and techniques that smart meters ought to give to consumers. The benefit will be to those who have already made the switch and, quite rightly, stimulated a new market, but they are not necessarily the most vulnerable in the market—in most cases they are quite the opposite. Unless we cater for all aspects of this market, with central objectives improving the position of those various groups of vulnerable consumers, we as legislators, and Ofgem as the regulator, will have failed.

[Lord Henley]

I thank noble Lords for what they said on these various amendments. I hope to set out what we are doing to protect the more vulnerable and disabled consumers in due course, but I will start by dealing with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, about what is referred to as “tease and squeeze”. We believe that the best way to end this practice is the detailed work that Ofgem is undertaking to test better ways to secure customer engagement and make switching quicker and more reliable, as well as many other programmes to make the market work better. Recent changes mean that suppliers can make their default tariff a fixed-rate deal rather than a variable-rate tariff; many have done so.

The amendments would require Ofgem to have specific regard to vulnerable and disabled consumers when setting the level of the cap, but they are unnecessary because Clause 1(6) already places a duty on Ofgem,

“to protect existing and future domestic customers who pay standard variable and default rates”.

That of course includes vulnerable and disabled customers. Further, the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, to Clause 7 would require Ofgem and the Secretary of State to consider whether effective competition is in place in the domestic energy supply market as a whole, and again this will include effective competition for all domestic consumers, including vulnerable and disabled customers.

As noble Lords will be aware, in addition to the duty imposed on Ofgem by the Bill to protect all existing and future domestic customers on SVTs and default tariffs, the gas and electricity Acts place a duty on Ofgem to protect the interests of existing and future consumers. In carrying out this duty, Ofgem should have regard to the interests of individuals who are chronically sick, disabled or of pensionable age on low incomes, and those residing in rural areas. With the protections for SVT and default tariff customers in this Bill and the specific duties in existing legislation for vulnerable people, there is no need to place additional duties on Ofgem to protect the interests of those consumers.

Ofgem and the Government are taking a number of steps to support vulnerable consumers. For instance, Ofgem has extended the prepayment meter cap to around 1 million vulnerable consumers in receipt of the warm home discount, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. The Government have laid regulations that, among other things, will enable data sharing between government bodies such as the Department for Work and Pensions and energy suppliers for the purpose of fuel poverty, including safeguard tariffs. Clause 3 of this Bill enables Ofgem not to apply the market-wide price cap to customers who benefit from another cap by reason of them being or appearing to be vulnerable.

I believe that these amendments broadly repeat the provision which is already set out in the Bill so they are an unnecessary duplication, but it is worth me going through some of the existing government support for vulnerable consumers. There is the payment of £140 a year to 2 million low-income households through the warm home discount scheme, along with £100 to £300 a year for all pensioner households through winter fuel payments. Some £25 a week is available to low-income and vulnerable households during a cold snap through cold weather payments. There is also the priority services register, which is a free service provided by suppliers for people of pensionable age, those who are sick or have a chronic medical condition, and those in vulnerable situations. That register includes priority support in an emergency by, for example, providing alternative heating and cooking facilities in the event of a supply interruption.

I thank the noble Lord for moving his amendment and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his intervention. I note that the commission he is to chair has been set up by Energy UK and we look forward to seeing its work in due course. However, I believe that the Government are taking appropriate action, including through this Bill, which is all about making the market work properly, to protect consumers from paying too much for their energy. The amendment would therefore be an unnecessary duplication and I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw it.

Retail Trade: Online Suppliers

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Henley

Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I made it clear that we have made changes in the Autumn Budget, with measures worth £2.3 billion by cutting business rates and trying to bring a degree of fairness to the system. There are limits to how far one can go and one must accept that a lot of what is happening is a result of what consumers want. It is obviously up to the retail sector itself to adapt and change in the face of changing consumer and social trends. The Government are doing what we can. That is why I mentioned the Future High Streets Forum, chaired by my honourable friend and why we have announced changes to rates. Thereafter, it must be for the retail sector itself to see what it can do to change.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a couple of years ago, a sub-committee of your Lordships’ EU Select Committee—under my chairmanship, as it happens—produced a report on online platforms? We found that the apparent consumer advantage was taken advantage of by the big online platforms, and the competition authorities at the European level were finding that difficult to come to terms with—witness the ongoing problem with Google. Is it not now important, post Brexit, that the competition authorities here tackle the domination and abuse of competition by the online platform giants?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, that is why we set up the CMA in 2013. That is why it has the powers it has and the ability to investigate abuse when it sees it.

Agriculture: Animal Feed

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Henley

Thursday 8th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend is right to point to further consequences of feeding animals in this way, in terms of producing the amount of soya used. Again, I stress to her, we should not make any changes unless the scientific evidence assures us that that is right and proper.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, would the Minister accept that the Government and the European authorities are right to proceed with caution on this front? I speak both as the Minister who was allegedly in charge during the last stages of food and mouth and as a former consumer champion. The noble Lord, Lord May, has spoken about BSE and we still do not know how the foot and mouth virus entered the chain. While some relaxation may be possible, I advise extreme caution.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord was totally in charge, and not just allegedly. As he puts it, we will proceed only if the scientific evidence is right and proper.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Henley

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty]

Apologies if the Minister was moving on to this point, but do the Government have an impact assessment of the effect of the abolition of the legal minimum on wage rates, given that when each of the other wages boards was abolished the rate in that sector fell? Clearly, there are always some who are paid more than the minimum, but have the Government done that calculation? If so, I think that we should know.

[Lord Henley]

I do not think that it is necessary for that work to have been done. As I said, we believe that with the abolition of the board the industry will be able to operate more flexibly, which would lead to more job creation and better opportunities. What the noble Lord and others have been asking us to do is describe what picture, as they put it, we see for the future. I believe that it is one where it is open to the industry to come together to set up its own system. Again, I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, who said that the NFU ought to be out there seeking to put something together. What I did not hear from the representatives of Unite or Unite’s predecessor, the Transport and General Workers’ Union, was whether they were prepared to come together with the NFU and put something together. I do not see why the NFU, Unite and other industry representatives cannot come together and create their own advisory committee to discuss these matters. We do not think that it is necessarily a matter for the Government.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Henley

Monday 29th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I hope I can answer some of the points put by the noble Baroness and her noble friends. I thank her for the point about Defra and the fact that I was going to respond regarding this amendment and a number of others in relation to that department. I appreciate there are quite a number of Defra arm’s-length bodies that are being referred to and I hope I can deal with them in due course as they happen. It may take a day or two before we cover them all but I will try to deal with them as and where appropriate.

The noble Baroness also said that some of these bodies have existed for a very long time indeed. I suppose she was appealing to my nature as a hard-line reactionary Conservative who does not want to see anything change at all. I see the noble Lord nodding in agreement—the arch reactionary here speaks. I am not sure that I am. Things do move on and from time to time we have to change them. For that reason I will not be able to support the noble Baroness in saying that everything should continue as it is just because it always has existed in the past.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, talked about vultures and leopards. I saw one of his noble colleagues, on the edge of the Chamber, who found some of these remarks faintly comic. He should not have done; I did not find them comic because the points were serious. For some reason, when you hear remarks about vultures in this House late at night—well, I think all noble Lords know what I mean. I will certainly take on board the points the noble Lord was making.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, spoke about the Food Standards Agency and asked if we are going to populate these bodies with the wrong people. That is certainly not going to be the case and I hope to deal with that when I deal with the substance of the amendments.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for moving these amendments. I appreciate there are four of us who have served in Defra or its former bodies, so we all know what it is like.

The first point I should make is that the bodies are listed in alphabetical order and we are now dealing with the first of the Defra organisations; there will be others later as we work through Schedule 1, as the noble Lord knows. He also knows perfectly well that theirs is not the only advice that Ministers receive—I was grateful that he stressed this—and that when Ministers receive advice from such bodies they are not bound to accept it. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for nodding his head on this point. In the end, Ministers of whatever persuasion have to make a decision. They take advice from all kinds of experts and then make a decision. I believe one of my colleagues, who is not in this House, wrote a book on the subject called Ministers Decide, or something like that, but we all write books of that kind.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred to the problems that neighbours might have with the some of the things we use in gardens. At that point one thought, “Gosh, what about North Korea?”. However, I take on board what the noble Lord had to say about the problems that different things can cause in different ways.

The amendment seeks to remove the three committees—it relates also to the Northern Ireland committee—from Schedule 1 so that we would not be able to abolish them. I shall set out why we wish to abolish them and explain how we wish their work to continue. I acknowledge that those committees have provided independent, expert and impartial advice to Governments of all political persuasions on hazardous chemicals and pesticides. That advice continues to be of value and I can assure the Committee and all noble Lords that abolition of these three committees in their current form will enable us to put in place better arrangements for the work to continue through expert scientific committees.

This reflects the work that the Cabinet Office has been doing with Sir John Beddington, the government Chief Scientific Adviser and the head of the Government Office for Science, and departments to identify more accountable and effective ways to deliver independent, high-quality scientific advice to government to meet the objectives of the public bodies reform programme and the principles of scientific advice to government.

We also need to recognise that statutory regimes for hazardous chemicals and pesticides are increasingly driven by EU legislation. Those three expert committees will remain independent and be able to put advice direct to Ministers, where appropriate, and will adhere carefully to the government code of practice for scientific and advisory committees.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked what savings would be available as a result of this. I wish to make it clear to the noble Lord that we are not looking particularly for savings; the savings, in fact, will be negligible. We are reorganising how the department commissions and applies scientific evidence and looking at ways to do this more coherently and efficiently. These bodies are being reconstituted as expert scientific committees to the department rather than as statutory NDPBs. That will allow them to provide better advice to us in an equally independent way without any particular savings. I hope the noble Lord will accept that.

With that explanation, I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment at this stage. Failing that, we will have to look at it again at a later stage.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for explaining some of the background to this. It was intended as a probing amendment and I think that we have probed something out of it. The Minister said in the latter part of his remarks that this was part of a discussion of the best way to deliver scientific advice, in conjunction with the Cabinet Office and the Chief Secretary. My query arose not so much because I want everything to be set in aspic and that no change should take place, but because there should be a rationale for it. After the Minister’s remarks I still do not quite understand why these two committees, both of which are particularly sensitive in a political and media way, do not deserve a clearly statutorily-based form of advice, whereas a significant number of the rest of Defra’s advisory committees are not on this list, and, if you took it across Whitehall, obviously the picture is wider.

This is why I argued that, in order to have this debate on a rational basis, we need some background from the Minister, or the Minister for Science or from BIS saying what our overall approach to advisory committees is. If it is, in general, that we move away from statutorily-based committees to expert panels, there may be an argument for that. The problem is that we have not heard that argument and that this seems to be differentially applied to bodies within the same department, let alone across Whitehall as a whole. There is a much bigger issue behind this that, at some point, the House is going to have to look at before we can easily give our consent to including some of these bodies on one or other of the schedules to the Bill.

I am glad that the Minister has, in a sense, opened that up, because maybe there is a bigger background that we will come back to at a later stage of the Bill. I am certainly not utterly convinced that the expert panel is much different from a statutory body in terms of the quality of its advice or procedures and, clearly, there is no great cost advantage. I still think that Ministers have, themselves, the protection that, if there is a statutory body giving them advice, at least that part of their advice is clear. Where there are other aspects to it and they take a different decision, that is a separate matter.

Clearly, I have opened up something here and I am glad that I have. For tonight, I will withdraw the amendment, but I think that we will probably be returning to this, or a wider debate.