Public Bodies (Abolition of Environment Protection Advisory Committees) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Greaves

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I start by declaring an interest as a shortly-to-be-retiring—I regret—member of the board of the Environment Agency. In that context, I thank the Minister very much for his remarks about the performance of the agency staff during the great difficulty of having four or five serious flood instances in different parts of the country at more or less the same time, which is, thank God, a pretty unusual event. I think that the agency delivered.

I also need to inform the Minister that to some extent I am here to represent my noble friend Lord Smith of Finsbury, who is chair of the Environment Agency and who apologises for not being here today. Much of what I say reflects his views although, as I am retiring from the board, I can also make my own remarks.

I welcome the changes. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has already referred to the rather lengthy proceedings that the Minister had to undergo in his previous capacity during the passage of the Public Bodies Bill, which he no doubt recalls without great nostalgia. The order concerns the sole part of the Bill to which I did not object. That is because, in this instance, a statutory structure is not necessarily the best way to carry out partnership, share information and mobilise members outside the agency. It is important that the work of the advisory committees is recognised. The people who have served on them have given stalwart service and have tried to represent the interests involved in delivering environmental and fishery outcomes but also to feed back information from the agency to those bodies.

However, there are probably better and certainly more flexible ways to do that which are more nimble and able to move with the times. I have some slight sympathy with the view of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, of the more advanced forms of social media— I am not entirely in front of the curve myself on that—but, in this area, the social media used in their broadest sense are a useful means of communication about flooding but also in more day-to-day environmental problems in mobilising those who are interested from public agencies, private citizens and organisations. The response time for using social media is much faster than with more traditional methods of communication.

When Defra consulted on that, there was not a huge number of responses. Of those who responded, those for and against were more or less in balance. There was a distinct negative balance in the north-west—as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, will be pleased to hear. That is not necessarily because they are more stroppy in the north-west. The agency has therefore taken steps to address the situation in the north-west, including a proactive use of social media. I think that it is true to say that most organisations in the north-west are now satisfied that the new forms of consultation will be an adequate replacement.

In my own area, which is the same as that of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, the Environment Agency has developed from a situation a few years ago where it was not seen as the most user-friendly organisation to having much more constructive relationships with organisations involved in these fields. For example, people will know that fishermen are not necessarily the easiest people to engage with, particularly if one is from a public body, but the relationship between the agency and the organisations involved in fisheries in the south-west has become very positive on the salmon, trout and coarse fishing side. We have for some time had a fisheries forum. That will be built upon and the relationships at different, more local levels will replace the rather centralised operation of the advisory committees. The situation is similar with the rivers and the river trusts in the area. Indeed, I am aware that in some areas the river trusts are taking on some responsibilities from the agency.

The abolished committees, while they were useful, are likely to be replaced by something more positive that will deliver the environmental outcomes that we all seek, whether it is on the electronic consultation and social media side or, possibly more importantly, the overall engagement. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, also objects to some of the conceptual terms in there, which I do not entirely dissent from. However, there is a degree of empowerment here. Bodies on the ground are taking responsibility in keeping the agency informed and being guided by the agency in dealing with incidents. For example, on rivers where there are not major flooding incidents, it takes first-line responsibility. That is quite important.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I wish to make it clear that it is not the process that I object to, it is the words used to describe it.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I probably share that view. However, the reality is that it allows more people to be engaged and to take responsibility. To that extent, I share the objectives of the Government. The only note of caution I introduce is that the processes of engagement, empowerment and partnership—all abstract terms but in day-to-day terms they mean talking to people a lot more and in a lot more detail and probably for longer than sending out signals from the centre—are time-consuming and therefore staff resources-consuming and, to some extent, money-consuming.

In other words, the big society—if one was to call it that—is not costless. In some ways, it may be more costly than more centrally directed activities and institutionalised responsibilities. At the worst end under the old system, a member of staff might well worry about the advisory committee a month before it is due to meet and write appropriate papers and probably get a decent outcome. However, this requires a year-long engagement with the bodies that are represented on those committees. So, from the point of view of agency staff resources, this does not really save money. I know its primary aim is not to save money but to come up with a better system but, nevertheless, the Explanatory Note suggests that some of the formal money will be saved. It will not be saved. It will be deployed in a more effective way and there will be, if anything, more pressure on staff than under the old system. Subject to that caveat and the fact that we will at some point review these proceedings and changes to see if they are working, I support the Minister in these orders.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Greaves

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

I echo everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has just said. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has raised some extremely important issues and hit some serious problems at the heart of the Bill. I am not sure that his solution is the right one, but it needs discussion. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, in not in her place because she made the important point that the meaning of the phrase “public health” has evolved over the years. The core Public Health Act 1936 was about the role of local authorities in relation to public health and what we now call environmental health.

In the 1974 local government reorganisation, public health functions were split. Half went to the health service, the other half remained with local government, and the phrases “environmental health” and “environmental health officers” were largely invented at that time to distinguish the new environmental health service from what had previously been public health. Of course, in two-tier authorities environmental health is a function of the lower-tier authority.

The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, made a very important point. We have some amendments coming up, probably in a few hours’ time, when we will discuss this, so I will not say a great deal more about that now except to make the basic point that it is very important indeed that environmental health functions, which already rest with unitary authorities but in county and district areas will rest with district authorities, are properly integrated with the rest of the public health function.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, the things that environmental health officers and departments do are astonishingly varied. If a problem is clearly a public health or environmental health problem, they will find the expertise, go out and get expert advice if it does not exist within that authority, and tackle it. It is a very important function indeed. However, at the national level, environmental health, as defined in the Local Government Act 1974, rests with the Department for Communities and Local Government, not with the Department of Health. It probably ought to rest with the DCLG because it is very clearly a local government function, but again, at the national level, the Government need to take action to integrate it into the new, very important public health functions of the Secretary of State.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Rooker has said, I have an amendment in this group that is precisely the same as his, except that it was directed at a different point. My noble friend has made a strong case for this particular dimension of addressing environmental health issues, but there is also the wider issue of the lacuna in the Bill, as has been touched on. There is one major shift that the White Paper, the post-pause White Paper and now the Bill are driving for: the shift of public health, including environmental health, to local authorities. However, the Bill itself reflects very little of that. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, in response to the group of amendments before last, referred to the fact that work was being done on it and said that she hoped this would see the light of day fairly soon.

The establishment of Public Health England as part of the department-cum-executive agency is hardly reflected in this Bill at all. The issues that relate to the respective role of the local authorities, to which my noble friend Lord Greaves has referred, are not reflected in this Bill at all. We have a major shift, going back to pre-1974, that makes public health the responsibility of local authorities. We have a recent history in which all the expertise in environmental health departments has been seriously squeezed because the requirements are mostly non-statutory. EHOs have been diverted on to other issues. We are coming into a further famine of local authority funding. The local authorities will be receiving this new public health responsibility at a time when their total resources are being squeezed and restricted and other priorities are impinging.

Before this Bill completes its course, we need greater clarity on how public health and environmental health responsibilities are to be carried out; what the structure of them is going to be; what the co-ordination among local authorities, and from the centre to the local authorities, is going to be; what the exact role of Public Health England is going to be; and, frankly, at least some broad indication of how that is being resourced.

[Lord Greaves]

The noble Lord raised the question of funding. Does he agree that this will perhaps be exacerbated in two-tier areas because the ring-fenced public health funding will go to the top-tier authorities, whereas the environmental health functions will remain with the lower-tier authorities—which indeed are extremely squeezed on their funding because this is what we call “other services”, which are not regarded as a priority—and finding a way of getting some of that funding down to the lower-tier environmental health authorities is a question that needs to be looked at?

[Lord Northbourne]

My Lords, perhaps I may intervene now to ask the Minister to say, when he is winding up, what happens if the local authority does not do what it is supposed to do? It is not impossible. In fact, there is a great variety, as we sit here today, in the performance of local authorities. They are managed by elected members, who want to please their electorates, so there are all sorts of arguments for thinking that not every local authority is going to be very enthusiastic about these additional objectives.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Greaves

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

I entirely accept that. However, in my experience, not all housing associations are the same and some do this better than others, which is inevitable with any type of organisation. In a sense, if there are housing associations or social landlords that do not do it quite as well as the organisation in which the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, is involved, that is an even more important reason why tenants should be able to go to the housing ombudsman as easily and quickly as possible.

Like my noble friend, we on these Benches would have preferred that this proposal from the Government was not in this Bill. It seems to go back to a local government ombudsman system that, as noble Lords have said, used to exist in local government but that, frankly, was not necessary and in some cases was harmful. There is no doubt whatever that on some occasions councillors used to find reasons not to pass complaints on or tried to persuade people not to pursue them. I always took the view that unless it was clearly vexatious I would automatically pass it on, even on one occasion when it concerned a complaint against the borough council about a housing matter in which I had been closely involved. I was chairman of the housing committee and I still said, “I will pass it on because it is right and proper that it gets dealt with”.

At Lancashire County Council, on one occasion I made a complaint against the education authority. Shortly after, I went to a reception of important people at county hall in Preston. As soon as I walked in the room, the then education officer came bounding across the room and at the top of his voice tore a strip off me for daring to question the reputation and organisation of that education authority. He then marched back to the other side of the room. I was much younger and a bit more timid than I am now but I still marched after him and, in an equally loud voice, tore a strip off him and told him that he was undermining democracy. In a sense, I should not have had to be there as part of that system. The people involved should have been able to go direct.

Along with other noble Lords, I think, around the Chamber, we have had quite a few discussions with members of the Government, particularly with Grant Shapps, who I believe is in charge of the housing parts of this Bill. We came to the view that we might win the argument but would not win the process of this legislation of removing these parts of the Bill or of putting in an amendment along the lines of that proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, which I would otherwise strongly support.

To help the Government, in these discussions we are looking for some compromise that at the very least provides a backstop so that, if any of these designated persons are not helpful and try to resist or are just incompetent in passing on a complaint, the tenant can nevertheless go direct to the housing ombudsman. It is a slightly messy process and it is not as good as now, but it can work and at the very least would maintain their right to go direct to make the complaint, even if someone else tries to persuade them otherwise or to block it.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, does not the noble Lord accept that if a tenant has reservations about their circumstances, which may be very personal, it is not just a question of whether if they go to them they may be rebuffed, but that they would be seriously inhibited about going to their councillor or their tenants’ panel, or possibly even their MP, in the first place? We should take that into account.