Water Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Crickhowell

Thursday 6th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

I rise to make a very brief comment, prompted by the remarks of my noble friend on the likely possibility of incumbents seeking to defend their positions. I seem to recall that, in reply to my noble friend Lord Moynihan in our previous debate, the Minister told us that the water companies had said that they were against what was proposed. I remember thinking, like Mandy Rice-Davies, “Well, they would, wouldn’t they?”. It was just an indication of the kind of attitude that one is likely to get from incumbents—perfectly naturally—in trying to defend their existing position.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, last week’s de facto alliance between the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and me extends in part to these amendments, in that it would be sensible for the Government to contemplate positively some of the latter amendments in the group, particularly those that inhibit the degree to which incumbents can effectively square the market against new entrants. However, my agreement does not extend all the way, I am afraid, particularly to the earlier amendments in the group. We must remember that the Bill is not quite as radical as all that, and, if it were to be a bit more radical, a lot of other things should follow.

We are, actually, introducing competition immediately only in a narrow part of the market. It is an important part, and there may be subsequent lessons to be learnt, but it is going a bit far to say that Ofwat’s central duty should be extended to promote competition. It already has a duty to look after the interests of consumers, where appropriate through competition, and we are making sense of that in a way that has not been done in the past 20-plus years of privatisation. However, we are not in any way legislating in this Bill for residential properties to be subjected to competition. Some noble Lords may think that we should be doing so, and it may be that I could be persuaded of that, but the fact is that we are not doing so here. If we were, that would raise a whole range of other protections and issues that would have to be considered.

It is also true—the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, referred to upstream competition—that a number of hesitations were expressed around the Committee last week about triggering the upstream aspect to this, particularly in relation to abstraction reform occurring first. I would not want the noble Lord’s Amendments 115 and 116 about promoting competition to give Ofwat the impression that their provisions would override the need to ensure that abstraction protection was in place before competition in the upstream area was triggered.

Therefore, I cannot support this group of amendments as a whole. The Government may wish to consider one or two of them but, at this point, many of them go too far beyond the scope of the Bill or could be interpreted as doing so.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Lord Crickhowell

Tuesday 4th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Crickhowell]

My Lords, there is something to be said for learning from experience. The fact is, we have the experience of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland, which introduced highly successful arrangements from 2008. It is very clear in its recommendations on this particular point, and in the paper sent to some of us it has taken note of the debate that took place in the other place. It says specifically:

“In our view the prudent course of action would be to remove the direct link between the provider of resource services and the retailer/customer. This would remove any ambiguity that could be exploited by a large corporation to the detriment of all other customers. It would also allow a market to develop that could help in building resilience and improving our environment”.

On the front of the paper, it simply says:

“Some of these issues were raised and debated during the Committee stage in the House of Commons but as yet the Government has not been persuaded to accept amendments on the topics of substance we discuss in this note”.

Clearly, in the light of the good experience in Scotland and the very firm advice given to us, we need to know why the Government are not accepting the advice. I shall be very interested to hear what my noble friend has to say.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I speak only because the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and to some extent the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, have rather pre-empted my speeches on the next group. Clearly we are on the same page. The reason I did not put my name to these amendments was that I was not entirely clear what they would do. I thought it would be better to establish a principle position on de-averaging and see what the Government thought. Clearly the Scottish experience is important. Given that experience, it is incumbent on the Government to tell us why they are not legislating in that way for England and Wales, and whether the precise amendments suggested by our Scottish colleagues would work under the Ofwat regime. Clearly the principle is an important one and it is one I will come back to on the next group.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I can accept quite a bit of what the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has just said, but it does not deal with the totality of the noble Baroness’s amendment, which I broadly support. Amendment 74 deals with bulk transfers which may well be within the context of an existing abstraction licence—it is only change of use if it is used for some other purpose. The Environment Agency does not have a licence control except in terms of change of use. It is an Ofwat responsibility, in increasing upstream competition, to arrange for these bulk transfers. It is complicated but it seems to me that if there is a serious environmental problem, the Environment Agency and its Welsh counterpart need some powers over and above consultation—which already exists—to stop those transfers taking place. I think that is really where the noble Baroness’s amendment is aimed.

The consultation rights already exist and the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has spelt this out. In most cases, under the previous regime, Ofwat and the Environment Agency have certainly in recent years reached an amicable agreement. However, there is the possibility of a clash under the new regime, and in those circumstances the noble Baroness’s Amendment 74 would be appropriate.

[Lord Crickhowell]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I do not have the papers immediately to hand but I have it in mind that if there is a change of use, that prompts Ofwat to have to consult the Environment Agency. I may be wrong on that and no doubt my noble friend will be able to deal with it.

[Lord Whitty]

If there is a change of use—for example, if you are a landowner with an extraction licence who now, under the new regime, wants to put it into the water system—then the Environment Agency has to give a change of use certificate, and will judge that in the same way as if it was a new extraction licence. So that control is there. However, if it is simply a bulk transfer within existing use and with existing abstractors, then that break is not there. I think I am right in saying that.