Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Worthington(10 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, those who oppose these amendments are missing the point. The amendments may well be in the wrong place; they may well be too wide. I did not intervene in the previous debate because I thought that it was becoming far too polarised. Public opinion on the issue of fracking is polarised, but public opinion is not polarised in relation to the protection of our national parks and our areas of outstanding natural beauty. Unless the Government in some way recognise within the overall approach to fracking that there are certain sites which have to be protected—whatever provision exists elsewhere in terms of general planning law and so forth—the outcry against fracking will grow rather than be reduced.
The Government should at least have the grace to recognise that that is a reality. In terms of public acceptability of fracking, protection of our protected areas is an important element which needs to be in the regulations and in the Bill. Whether the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness are technically in the right place or not, the politics and the PR for fracking need to make that point. If they do not, the 25% of people who fundamentally oppose fracking will grow in number. The Government have the opportunity to ensure that that does not happen. I hope that, if not now then in the process of this Bill through the Commons, the Government will put that right.
Baroness Worthington
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, which has been another interesting exchange of views on how best to get the fracking industry off on the right foot and to minimise the degree of public opposition that might arise.
I recently visited the Lake District, which is one of my favourite parts of the country. I visited a mining museum and, in doing so, I realised that we often see such parts of the country as having a great value now in terms of tourism, wildlife and appreciation of scenic beauty, but that they have in previous times been quite diversely economically active and been able to accommodate different activities within the boundaries of the parks as we know them today. Therefore, I for one am not of the opinion that these special places need to be preserved in aspic but that it is about achieving the right level of balance.
That said, it is absolutely clear that, when you have a Government who say that they are all out for fracking and that it will be the silver bullet that solves all our energy needs, and slightly overhype it, you can see why people get nervous that all due consideration and care are not being taken. I shall be interested to hear the Minister’s responses to the two amendments. The second of them, Amendment 115, points to something of an inconsistency, with planning guidance having been issued for national parks and AONBs but not for other nationally significant sites. Such sites, because they tend to be smaller, more fragmented and under considerable pressure from a wide range of economic activities already, arguably deserve even greater levels of protection than those larger national parks and AONBs, which I think can accommodate economic activity within them and generate jobs and economic benefits. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.
Renewables Obligation Closure Order 2014
Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Worthington
Lord Whitty (Lab)
I have two points on which the noble Baroness may wish to write to me. I mentioned in the previous debate the apparent intention of the department to end ROs on larger solar projects over 5 megawatts from April next year, which is well before anything else happens. I wonder whether the department are proceeding with that—it is a uniquely early finish of RO cover—for projects which may come on, or be in the process of coming on, in the period between now and 2017.
Secondly—I may have to declare a past interest—there is an obscure footnote to this which relates to the need to consult the National Consumer Council, of which I was formerly chair. The National Consumer Council was abolished but its powers and interest in the energy dimension have transferred to Citizens Advice. I hope that the department can give a general assurance that Citizens Advice will be consulted in the same way as Consumer Focus, and before that Energywatch, was consulted on all matters of energy policy which relate to consumer outcomes.
Baroness Worthington (Lab)
My Lords, I am sad to see the end of the renewables obligation. It is tempting to say that everything was dysfunctional, that nothing was working and was not it awful. However, we should look at what we have achieved: at how much renewables capacity we now have in the UK and at how quickly and efficiently it has been deployed. This was largely achieved because of the RO, which replaced the NFFO scheme.
It was a highly innovative scheme which was introduced to allow the market to choose the projects it thought it should bring forward. It was obliged, of course, to meet targets set by Government but, by and large, it chose what to do. There were merits in that because it created an obligation. As we know, faced with having to do something or not do something, most people would choose the latter, stick with what they know and remain encumbered with technology that they understand and assets that they can continue to sweat. One of the benefits of the RO was that it did not allow that to happen. The ways in which penalties were repaid back to your competitors encouraged you to build new bits of kit, and to do so under a market-driven system. Over time, of course, it changed to ensure that we were not paying too much and that consumers were getting a good deal.
Over the years that we have been debating EMR, I can remember someone saying to me—I do not know whether or not it is true—that when EDF first approached government and said, “We want to build a new nuclear power station”, its first suggestion was, “Simply give us a ROC band. We can do it. We can build you Hinkley if you turn it into a low-carbon obligation and allow nuclear to be eligible”. Would it not have been a lot simpler if we had just said “Yes”? We did not, but we have come up with a new system, and we are where we are. However, I want to put on record that RO was successful; it brought forward a lot of capacity and brought diverse players into the market. We saw a great diversification of the number of companies that took part in the electricity market because of the RO. I, for one, am slightly nervous that we are abandoning what was a functioning system and embarking on a new, glorious path. I hope that the CFD will be as successful.
However, one suggestion is that it would be good for the department—perhaps this talks to my noble friend Lord Whitty’s point about communicating with the public in ways that it understands—if we could have an assessment of the RO, how much capacity was brought on, the diversity of that capacity and of the investors in that capacity. That would give us a good baseline from which to measure the success of the CFDs. We want CFDs to be more successful—we want them to bring on more capacity from a more diverse range of participants. Therefore, although it is not strictly speaking part of this regulation, and nothing in there requires it, it would be good for the department to undertake to provide us with a summary and a review of the effectiveness of the RO. From there it could move on to use those parameters of diversity and deployment against the CFDs, so that we can measure how successful they are.
My noble friend Lord Whitty raised an important point, that once the RO closes and the CFDs move on, there is a danger that we have mid-range technologies which fall into a sort of valley of death between FITs and the new CFD arrangements. I echo his question. We want to clarify that we will not see technologies that are currently receiving support either through FITs or the RO being lost in translation towards the CFDs. However, other than that, I thank the noble Baroness for her presentation.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions. This has been a very short but interesting debate. I will respond very quickly to one or two of the points that were raised. Again, if I do not respond fully, I undertake to read Hansard carefully and to respond in writing.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked whether Citizens Advice would be consulted on the use of powers relating to the RO; the answer is yes. He also asked about financial support for solar PV. We have consulted on the proposals to close RO across Great Britain to new solar PV capacity above 5 megawatts from 1 April 2015. Those proposals will apply to both new installations and to additional capacity added to existing ones. From the noble Lord’s expression, I am not sure whether that was the answer he expected.