Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Garden of Frognal
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I thank the noble Lord for that. Unfortunately I had to wait for the lift and I got stuck getting here. Apparently there is no way we can go back to my amendments. Is that correct? Perhaps the Minister or someone else will answer. I had every intention—I had waited here all day specifically—to move these amendments.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I am sorry to say to my noble friend that her amendments were called and not moved, so I am afraid that we have now moved on to Amendment 7.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness. We almost missed this amendment as well so I quite understand the hurry. This indicates the rigidity of our procedures because my original intention at Third Reading, given that we got a printed copy of the Bill that had the Agricultural Wages Board in it only yesterday, was to insist that an equivalent procedure be written into this Bill for dealing with the implementation of the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board in the same way as that applied to every single other public body.
That is not in order for Third Reading and, obviously, I accept the advice of the clerks in these matters. I have therefore concentrated on a very narrow area which was not fully debated last time, although we touched on it in some detail. However, there was no amendment before us then that required a further economic assessment from the Government of the impact of the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board.
The fact of the matter is that there was considerable confusion at the previous stage as to what the economic assessment was. The Government have not produced the kind of Explanatory Memorandum that is required under the Public Bodies Act, but there was a document called the “economic assessment”, which went with the rather curtailed consultation and clearly indicated that the main effect of this Bill would be a significant reduction in the aggregate income of agricultural workers by nearly £0.25 billion over the next 10 years. Those were the figures provided by Defra via the Minister and the impact assessment.
On the day that we last debated this matter, and having queried whether that was still the Government’s position, I received a letter from the Minister which said, “No, no, these figures were all got up”—I paraphrase slightly—“by the consultants”, and that the department did not believe a word of it. He said that the consultants had advised at the top end of the range, whereas the Government thought that the outcome would be at the bottom end of the range. That is not a very satisfactory position in any circumstances and it is certainly not satisfactory when we are abolishing a body which has existed for many years and is the only one in this cull of the quangos which specifically tries to protect the living standards of a group of rural workers.
In the debate that followed, all sorts of interpretations came on to the agenda. I tended to agree, because I am conventional sort of person, that what the department had told us was probably right. Therefore, I agreed with the statisticians who were advising Defra. The Minister had already indicated that he did not really agree with them; others of his supporters said various different things. Some, whom one might characterise, perhaps unfairly, as being of the landowning tendency, said that it would be all right because they already treated their chaps decently, which is fair enough; other people said that the international competitiveness of English agriculture—because the other parts of Britain do something different—was dependent on being able to cut wages. Some of those people were the very same people who argue rather the opposite when it comes to banking, but let us let that pass. Others—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish, was among them—argued that agricultural wages were excessive already and were greater than those of hotel workers. That seemed rather to prove my point, because the wages councils in the hotel and catering industries were abolished some years ago.
However, it was clear that there was no compatibility between the various interpretations of the best estimate of the outcome as compared with the Government’s own figures and as compared with the Minister’s position and my position. There are four or five different interpretations. That is not good enough.
I am therefore proposing a very modest amendment: the Government should come up with a new economic assessment before they trigger the commencement proceedings on this Bill. Surely everybody who spoke in that debate and everybody who has an interest in this area should be in favour of that, because we want a robust economic assessment. Whatever we may think about the abolition of the board and whatever opinion we may have about the need to raise, reduce or protect wages, we should get a better economic assessment before we do it. That is really all my amendment proposes.
It would have one other benefit for the Government: it would take a bit of time and it would be interesting to know what timetable the Government have in mind for the implementation of abolition. After all, discussions on this year’s round of wages have already started and would normally be for implementation in October. In effect, if the Government let that round go, the Agricultural Wages Board’s underpinning of wages would run until October 2014 at least.
The Government need a bit of time because there are a number of issues which do not relate to wages but are covered by the agricultural system. One of them is the situation relating to Wales, which wants a different outcome. The position on Wales is not resolved by the Government’s clauses as they now stand in the Bill, so they need a bit of time to sort out the Welsh situation. They also need to deal with the non-wage aspects of the agricultural wages order, in particular those aspects that deal with tied cottages for permanent workers and those that deal with adequate accommodation for migrant and seasonal workers. It is only the Agricultural Wages Board which provides that migrant seasonal workers are required to have one bed each rather than 20 of them sharing a six-berth caravan, as was the situation prior to it being regulated by the wages board. So those matters need sorting out. Some protection is needed in law or in regulation once the board goes.
I am doing the Government a favour by putting forward this amendment. The Minister has had a rough day so far, but I am offering him a way out here. So that we no longer argue about this—and subject to what the Commons say, because they have not seen this amendment yet—we need, before the Government implement this clause, a clear economic assessment which the House and another place can debate if necessary. That will also give the Government the time to sort out the other loose ends. I therefore assume that the Government will accept my amendment and that we can then move on and complete this Bill. I beg to move.
Media Oversight: Transfer of Responsibilities
Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Garden of Frognal
Lord Whitty
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will reconsider their decision to transfer responsibility for media, broadcasting, digital, telecommunications and oversight of Ofcom from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, there are currently no plans to do so.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that rather disappointing reply. I think the House and the world understand why, in the BSkyB case, the Prime Minister had to remove responsibility from a Minister who appeared to be prejudiced in one direction and give it to a Minister in a different department who we now know to be prejudiced in another direction. However, that is not my point. At the same time, and with no logic, the Government transferred whole swathes of responsibility not just for BSkyB and broadcasting but for media as a whole—digital, telecommunications and oversight of the key regulator, Ofcom. Why was that done and who has benefited? It is not clear to me that consumers, small businesses hoping to compete, or the public interest have benefitted. Surely competition and consumer protection should be paramount.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, the noble Lord makes some valid points and I acknowledge his expertise in consumer matters, which will of course inform his views. However, he will appreciate that there are many aspects of government in which more than one department has an interest. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is an economic-focused department, so it makes a great deal of sense to bring together for the first time the full value chain of the technology industries—the infrastructure, content regulation and the creative industries—in one place. It is, after all, the department for media.